Mortals putting astartes in there place?
By - Square_Homework_7537
Someone in lore who might agree with you:
>‘The thing about Space Marines, Threlnan, is that they’re all brainwashed psychopaths.’ Lord General Xarius walked lopsidedly with a cane. His troops tended to assume it was an old war injury but the truth was Xarius was an old man and his hip was giving out.
>‘I’m glad they’re here, certainly,’ continued Xarius. ‘The Crimson Fists were an essential part of the battle plan. But you see, now the first battles have been fought I’d rather have a few more decent men who can be counted on to follow orders and run away like proper soldiers.’
>‘Marines are good for morale,’ said Threlnan.
>‘Hah! That they are, as long as they’re fighting on the same side. Don’t look at me like that, Threlnan, I know what they’re like. The Dark Angels were supposed to spearhead our assault on the Dragon Archipelago on Balhaut, and when the order came down they were nowhere to be seen. Off fighting their own little war, never mind the men dying in the surf to win a beach the Marines should have taken. Never mind the rest of us lesser men.
>‘No, when they do what they’re told they’re the best, I know that. But just because we’ve suddenly got a company of Crimson Fists doesn’t mean they’ll fight where I tell them. They should be helping the Fire Drakes get a decent foothold in the south but I can’t even contact the Fists’ commander. They’ve got some private war here, Threlnan, and you’re a fool if you’re hoping it will coincide with ours.
But to most people in the lore, they are the equivalent of angels - the Emperor's holy warriors, his direct genetic descendents.
This book definitely came to mind. The rank and file may worship them, but having astronomically powerful forces on the battlefield that may or may not do as you wish doesn't seem to endear them to the ranking officers. He was proven right, too.
Wasn’t Balhaut a battle in the Guants Ghosts books?
Apparently so! You have a good memory for names
Literally angels for the people of Baal.
Well there's one glaring example I can think of.
**Inquisitor Eisenhorn, quite famously, defeated a Chaos Space Marine in a 1v1 melee.** Sliced his head off, in fact.
The *how* was apparently whispered around the Space Marine chapter that Eisenhorn was with during the cleansing of the Saurathi. They were astonished by the feat. And one of their number quietly probed Eisenhorn for information.
The Chaos marine had armor coated in runes and symbols and was apparently affected by Slaanshi corruption. Eisenhorn had a copy of the Necroteuch in his possession - a powerful Chaos book. And as the fight started, he threw it on the ground at a random page.
So transfixed with the marine, that he momentarily lost himself in the pages. Allowing Eisenhorn to take his head clean off, sending his soul screaming back to The Eye.
A special circumstance. But a confirmed case of a near-baseline human taking out an astarte.
It’s hilarious that human ingenuity never fails to try some shit like “hey look at this”
It’s like the old vampire trick of throwing a bunch of coins so they have to count them all. But with horrific eldritch knowledge instead of pennies.
The what now?
Old vampire lore that if you drop a quantity of small things, coins, rice, etc. a vampire will be compelled to stop and count them. Not sure where it originated but it’s an old idea from before the time when vampires were all sexualized drug addicts.
I believe it's a remnant left behind from the myths and legends about faeries that just so happened to then be attributed towards vampires as well or vice versa
Actually, it goes back even before that, and it’s pretty fucked up.
A looong time ago, people used to think that Jews could be (among other things) vampiric, or have vampiric qualities. This stems from a lot of sources - Judas Iscariot, anti-Semitic thought and efforts to demonize, Catholic propaganda during the original Inquisition, pretty much anytime Jews were harassed and/or actively discriminated against.
The whole idea with “throwing coins” is because, as a fucked up anti-Semitic stereotype about Jews, a Jewish person would become so obsessed with the money (because they were Jewish) that they would stop paying attention to anything else that was in front of them.
For more info on this, you can go [here.](https://www.anumuseum.org.il/blog-items/myth-vampire-jew-blood-libels/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_orrcIeH00m.aaDJfhfMiRtxgLx9PDhdyTuMNJ8aJnnk-1635377224-0-gqNtZGzNAjujcnBszQe9)
Oh, and just as an interesting aside, Michaelangelo (yes, that guy who made the Sistine Chapel and all) lived in a time when people thought Jewish people had horns. Don’t believe me, look at his sculpture of [Moses.](https://images.app.goo.gl/xpAESUpB9RZtBa4U7)
So it was based on natural observation? Fascinating!
I believe it's a remnant left behind from the myths and legends about faeries
I always heard that was the case for faeries.
It was used in a Dracula movie before. Only problem is he counted them all before they even hit the ground.
I remember seeing it in a supernatural episode where a character dumps out a shot shell to buy time while go does a spell or something.
Count von Count on Sesame Street is a good example.
Wouldn’t be the oldest trick in the book if it didn’t keep working.
IIRC mortals killing/beating astartes happens more than it should in the lore. Off the top of my head Commissar Gaunt has killed one or two, and Honsou (yea, that Honsou) got his arm chopped off because he was an inferior swordsman to Castellan Vauban of the Jouran Dragoons.
Caiaphas Cain has killed at least two (although he had help)
Melta + Jurgen = Cain wins
It’s SUPER effective!
He wasn't necessarily an inferior swordsman so much as he had an inferior sword.
Yeah no, that second one in particular should’ve been impossible. No baseline human is going to win in in a straight up contest of physical ability against Astartes.
They straight up don’t have the neurons/mass to be able to contend with the amount of force that Astartes are hurling at them at superhuman speeds.
If a space marine in power armor swings a power sword at you, and you block it, at best your arms are dislocated with the effort of diverting the blow. At worst, your arms shatter and he drives the blade straight through to cleave you apart.
At the very least with Gaunt, he ambushed the one that he killed while it was engrossed with slaughter. He is also a master stealther in the perfect environment. *And*, the CSM in question were notable degraded in quality from lack of conditioning.
He needed every element to be in his favor to pull it off, and he failed even then with the second one, which nearly eviscerated him before getting saved by the nihtgane’s reyn-bows.
If you're referring to the Honsou fight, Honsou didn't have a power sword and the officer did. Honsou couldn't use his superior strength that way or his blade would break and the power sword would go straight through him and his armour.
CSM souls go back to the warp when they die?
Older lore strongly implied this was the case.
In [Warhammer 40k: Chaos Gate (1998)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Chaos_Gate), the Chaos Space Marines would often scream ["I RETURN TO THE EYE!!"](https://youtu.be/kam4xMGseNU?t=2646) on being killed.
And in [Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (2006)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War_%E2%80%93_Dark_Crusade), when Eliphas the Chaos Apostle is about to die he yells ["NO, I will NOT go to the Basilica of Torments again!!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxl1q7Lb3g8&t=18s). Clearly not his first rodeo.
He doesn't die either. His soul returns in Dawn of War II retribution. Despite his body exploding into a shower of blood.
Plus, the general acceptance among the community (at the time) with attrition rates being what they are, and with long war veterans being so common, it seems logical that the Chaos Gods are reluctant to part with the souls of their favoured trophies.
They're probably just plucking them from the warp and remaking them.
‘Hail, prioress,’ Bayard acknowledged her with a bow, as did the others. Grimaldus and Priamus made no obeisance, with the swordsman remaining unmoving and Grimaldus instead making the sign of the aquila.
‘I am Prioress Sindal, and in the name of Saint Silvana, I bid you welcome to the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant.’
Grimaldus stepped forward. ‘Reclusiarch Grimaldus of the Black Templars. I cannot help but notice that you do not sound welcoming.’
‘Should I be? Half of the Temple District has already fallen in the last week. Where were you then, hmm?’
Priamus laughed. ‘We were at the docks, you ungrateful little harpy.’
‘Be at ease,’ Grimaldus warned. Priamus replied with a vox-click of acknowledgement.
‘We were, as my brother Priamus explained, engaged in the east of the hive. But we are here now, when the war is at its darkest, as the enemy approach the temple doors.’
‘I have fought with Astartes before,’ the prioress said, her armoured arms crossed over the fleur-de-lys symbol that marked her sculpted breastplate. ‘I have fought alongside warriors who would have given their lives for the Imperium’s ideals, and warriors that cared only for accruing glory, as if they could wear their honour like armour. Both breeds were Astartes.’
‘We are not here to be lectured on the state of our souls,’ Grimaldus tried to keep the irritation from his voice.
‘Whether you are or not doesn’t matter, Reclusiarch.'
It's a pretty good one.
Guillimans adopted mother (Tarasha Euten) basically told the night haunter to go to hell after he’d taken out an entire squad of space wolves who had been guarding her - aside from that she was surprisingly tough but fair with other space marines, even admonishing a number of Guillimans guards for believing he was invincible and hence didn’t need protection
Tarasha Euten did not mess around
Guillimom is the absolute best
I honestly wish we got to see more of her character
Maybe someday Guilliman will be out and about on the Indomitus crusade and be surprised by a small blue dreadnought with a familiar voice bringing him his lunch…
GW better jump on that. I'd pay good money for the adventures of Roboute Guilliman and his Robot Guillimom
I would sell my kidney to see and/or make it happen - in the meantime if I ever start an ultramarines army, i know what I’m going to kitbash together as a nice centrepiece ;)
I want see it
Hopefully I’ll be able to get my hands on some nice dreadnought bits - I think a lot of the characters going to come from it being a little smaller than a normal dread, and having a more Ultramarine look to it (say a big U on the front and laurels in the sarcophagus trim!)
Also since it wouldn’t exactly be a normal unit anyway, I think it would be fun to give it *very* heavy firepower; woe betide anyone who hurts Tarashas child when she’s nearby!
Damn straight, I imagine it had its own awakening protocols, whenever Guilliman has gotten into trouble, Tarasha is there to help
*Activation protocol, engaged*
*Protect the boy*
*hugs & extreme violence*
Enemy: Are you going to hide behind your mother, Lord of Ultramar?
Guilliman: As a matter of fact, yes, yes I am.
Tarasha: You harmed a hair on my boy's head. Prepare to die!
To be fair to dear Faffnr, only one of his pack died in that encounter.
True, true, their actual losses were pretty low all things considered, but even so they didn’t exactly have a fun time during that fight!
Imagine if Tarasha hadn’t survived that incident though - poor Faffnr would find himself in dire straights o.O
I’d rather have them die honourable deaths than receive the treatment Thorpe and Annandale gave them.
They did deserve better honestly - but it could be worse!
They could’ve ended up getting squished by falling masonry when the lion decided to get a little trigger happy on macragge from orbit
Honestly I’d STILL prefer that. Thorpe briefly describes the pack as how 98% of the sub does, and Annandale doesn’t even mention them, in his horrible, horrible, horrible book.
I’m quite smitten by Faffnr,
Poor Faffnr deserved more, the pack too
I would’ve liked some more little snippets about their time with Tarasha, how they got along and what their differing perspectives on certain aspects of ultramar were
Definitely. They go from being best buds with Guilliman, to whatever bullhorsegroxshit Thorpe described them as. And I normally don’t mind Thorpe.
We don’t even got a interaction of the Pack and Guilliman after they defend his mum.
See that’s exactly what annoyed me when I first read about that; they almost die (1 of them actually dying) defending Guillimans mum and they don’t even get a thank you note or goody bag for their efforts
I just wanted detail on their feast with Guilliman and getting him drunk.
Lotara Sarin was the captain of the World Eater's flagship during the great crusade and Heresy. She once shot a WE marine in the face for being stupid. I forget the context exactly. The marine in question would not have gotten away with attacking her because she was well respected, even by Angron himself.
The Space Marine in question had gone down to the surface of a planet and left the Conqueror poorly defended during a boarding action, resulting in major casualties. This despite his duty to protect the ship.
He and his retinue opened fire on her in retaliation, a WE librarian created a shield around her to stop the bolter rounds. For some reason people typically skip that part.
I don't remember that part
Delvarus was the miscreant. The whole thing creates a major headache for him.
Esca was the librarian. The same Esca that desperately tried to save Angron from ascension, unto his own death.
This was during the Horus Heresy. It was an occupation with few prospects for the future at the time.
Him and the very few WE librarians didn’t last long after Angron’s change..He was..pretty..*hungry* after that transformation
I need excerpts.
Looking for my Copy of Betrayer now
Delvarus was the chief of the company supposed to guard the ship. He decided to join a planetary assault instead of staying on board.
The Conqueror ended up being boarded by loyalist marines. It repelled the assault at great cost in crew lives by awakening it's dreadnoughts.
Delvarus wasn't just being stupid; it was outright dereliction of duty.
Was looking for this
There's a bit in one of the Cain novels (The Emperors Finest) where Mira manages to convince the Reclaimers to let her join their expedition by implying that failing to do so would be a failure of their duty to cleanse the Genestealer taint from her home world. It's a minor plot point but it is kind of along the lines that you're asking about.
Also, Cain himself was pretty well respected by Space Marines. The Reclaimers consider him to be a friend of the chapter with even marines that he's never met regarding him as a staunch ally. In The Last Ditch members of another chapter (who's name I can't recall) also treat him as an honored guest based purely on his reputation (and possibly the fact that he's friends with an Inquisitor).
He's also faced off against some Chaos Marines (twice) in The Emperor's Hand. First time, he trades blows with a World Eater and positions the Chaos Marine so Jurgen can get a clean shot with his Melta, and in the second instance, he takes advantage of a breach on the armor of another berserker and just straight up mercs that CSM with his own trusty chainsword, in front of some Tallarns (which among other things later on lead them to found an Imperial cult that worships him as a prophet of the Emperor).
> I found myself looking up into the face of an armoured giant. He showed long fangs that were in no way reassuring and grinned as though I were not pointing a shotgun directly at his head. I swallowed but I held my ground. Eyes that caught the light like those of a dog studied me for a moment. The pupils contracted. He sniffed the air, wrinkled his nose as if he caught wind of something he didn’t like.
> ‘Did I fart?’ I said.
Sounds like you'd be a fan of the Minotaurs.
> We were only prevented from coming together in combat by the sudden
spit and crackle of a single teleport column streaking down from the
cathedral’s ruined heights. The ether-vortex locked on to Ravathain’s locsignal, crashing into the nave’s tortured floor, splashing against the flags
of the podium and boiling away. As I felt the rush of sudden cold, and saw
the white-silver energy reflect in Moloc’s burnished plate, I thought for a
moment that Valoris had come, or perhaps Garadon, bringing with them
the reinforcements we needed to fight our way out.
> I was to be disappointed. Instead, a single figure emerged from the
guttering warp-flame to stand by my side. It was a woman, clad in
protective gear for the ether-translation but otherwise unarmed. I knew her
only by sight – Violeta Roskavler, one of the two who had claimed
ownership of the title Master of the Administratum. Except that her rival
was now dead, extinguished by an assassin’s bullet, removing all possible
doubt as to her legitimacy.
> She said nothing to me. She said nothing to anyone else. In front of all
those thousands of fighters, in front of all the assembled Space Marines,
any one of which could have ended her with a single shot, she walked
steadily down the steps. She came up to Moloc, looking less than a child
before his colossal frame. I saw her hold up the icon of her office – the
sigil of beaten iron borne by its holders since the dawn of the Imperial
Age – but otherwise make no gesture.
> Moloc let her approach. He waited for her, as if suddenly subject to some
hex or enchantment, his mighty limbs bound by unseen forces. When she
lifted herself to speak into his ear, he bent down to allow her, so that the
words passed between them unheard by any other soul in that place.
Having spoken, Roskavler then withdrew from him, walking back up the
steps to join us again. Moloc straightened. He looked at me, and then at
Fadix. Silence reigned across the entire cavernous space, unbroken and
> Then, slowly, he turned away. He trudged back the way he had come, his
cloak flicking around his ankles, and his warriors followed him.
\- *The Regent's Shadow*
? The master of the administratum is a mortal
>**I dont like this constant arrogance** that astartes display regarding baseline humans **that they are chaff, nothing**, etc.
>**To my mind, an astartes is nothing** but a bioengineered weapon, to be used and discarded as situation requires.
Is this supposed to be ironic?
Well, lets take a step back and look at it objectively. More of a philosophical discussion too, perhaps.
Was it in master of mankind, that the emperor says that the future he is creating is for baseline humans, and ONLY baseline humans? Implication being that all his creations are just tools, means to an end, to be discarded once their job is done. Thunder Warriors case in point. Then again, he does that to everyone, humans too.
Then, what is the difference between astartes, gun servitor, arco-flaggelant, skitarii, temple assasins? All created in a lab for a specific purpose or function. In other words, a tool. Is it wrong to consider them as such?
More specifically, is an astarte marine not a weapon? Tau conclude this as well, somewhere by memory - they condider gue-ron'sha or whatever term for space marines, as nothing but a bioengineered weapon - not human. If we accept this premise, that they are living weapons, is it arrogant to think of them as such? Do you place a fork on the same level as a human?
But they are sentient, you will say. Are they truly? How many layers of hypno-conditionining do these beings undergo? Maybe different from a servitor, but programmed nonetheless? Is that less then human? Can a custodes disobey a command from the emperor? The difference between a servitor and an astarte is the degree to which their minds have been programmed / moulded / broken. Imperium does not treat servitors as sentient.
I think the question centers on what is exactly humanity - is it baseline humans, or various flavours of bio-engineered stuff, like custodes, astartes, etc. What did Emperor envision?
It depends. A young astartes is barely sentient, same with a custodian. When they grow older they mature and act differently. Astartes develop distinct personalities, and custodes gain the ability to call the emperor out on his bullshit.
They're a troll
"To my mind, an astartes is nothing but a bioengineered weapon, to be used and discarded as situation requires. No different from a bullet. But apparently thats not how lore views them?"
If the Imperial Truth was still dominant maybe it would be this way, but 10,000 years of venerating the Emperor as a god tends to change things, and as part of that change Astartes are now the Emperors holy avenging angels. Only an Inquisitor get away with treating them as disposable weapons, and even then they'd be foolish to try it.
Multiple chapters have tangled with the inquisition and come out worse for the wear, or not come out at all. Several commisars have earned there respect. And even entire battalions of guardsmen have. As for rank and file astartes being "put" in their place by some regular human. No.
You've obviously forgotten the World Eaters Waifu Lotara Sarrin putting a World Eater in his place by shooting him in the head with laser pistol and the berating him.
I’d like to point out the only reason she survived was because she had Skane and Bloodspitter backing her up
This is very true, but it's one of the single best instances of an Astartes being put in their place which there isn't nearly enough of in lore.
>place which there isn't nearly enough of in lore.
Doing good there chief, need a handkerchief?
Colonel Straken doesn’t give a shit, he really pissed off Korsarro khan with his attitude
Youre talking about a guy who STRANGLED a chaos lord to death. He doesnt give a fuck about nothing.
World Eaters, Lotara Sarrin, Betrayer.
The best one is, of course, the infamous Lotara Sarrin, Captain of the Conquerer, the World Eaters' flagship. After the Battle of Armatura, she shot Captain Delvarus in the face with her laspistol because he abandoned his post of protecting the protecting the ship to participate in the battle on the planet. Then, she confined him to his quarters.
She called him an arrogant swine at one point.
This is a bioengineered weapon market, not a requestee market.
The bioengineered weapon can pick any conflict on an endless list to respond to. You are begging for any chapter to respond to the the entrance of a space hulk into your star system. So roll out the red carpet and bring them delicacies they won’t even touch. You’re dead if they decide to respond instead to the 13th black crusade or a Tyranid invasion of Baal.
And never forget that the emperor left “honor” in his space marines. Their oath to stand guard on your world will only last so long before they’re commandeering a space ship to take them to war. Almost all the astartes are warrior monks, only a handful act like actual soldiers here to work an objective.
We are the next stage in your evolution, misbegotten fool. THE WARP OFFERS UNTOLD POWER
*summons an Inquisitor of the Ordo Malleus* This one here, Inquisitor.
Lotara Sarrin of 40k - at any point in time. She even tells Angron to fuck off.
Lotara the commanding officer of the World Eaters flagship Conqueror did this constantly
Your average soldier, even general, might think the Astartes are arrogant, psychopathic douchebags. But very, very few are bold enough to say it to their faces, because a space marine can and most likely will backhand you with enough force to break your neck for such sass. Only the Salamanders and Lamenters are known for protecting the people of the Imperium. The rest serve Holy Terra and the Emperor, no matter who has to die for whatever petty reason.
Mark of Faith, Sisters kill a bunch of Thousand Sons. I mean it’s basically a massacre on both sides and the Sisters win because miracles happen.
That said, baseline humans killing Marines usually involves some kind of space magic, and/or Plasma Gun.
Purging fallen Astartes was one of the original duties of the Sisters of Battle back in Rogue Trader, back when Marines were surgically-augmented criminals (and only Toughness 3 with a 4+ save).
That role for them has never really gone away, it just got hidden under all the religious stuff that built up over time.
Not an Astartes, but a Custodes - it was in an excerpt I read here before, and while I don’t think it’s a “telling off”, the only person more dangerous to, um, talk sternly to, than an Astartes is a Custodian.
This incident is where a general on some world tells a Shield-Captain that his men are on the brink of being broken, and how he’s basically sending them into a meat grinder to die for what appears to be a needless cause.
Custodes then asks, “And your point is…?” Implying that he doesn’t like being questioned and that the general better make it good or regret his words.
General then says that he’ll do what he is asked to do, by the Custodes, because it is what the Emperor requires - but he then asks them, as His representatives, to make sure that whatever they are going to do, to make it *count*, because he doesn’t want all of the sacrifices he’s making, in the end, to be in vain. He goes on to say that they have faith in their cause and their judgment, even if they don’t know what the next step is and have no idea what the endgame is, but that they just want whatever they are giving their lives for to not be worthless (the general says it a **lot** more eloquently than I’m paraphrasing here).
The Custodes, then, after being appropriately… informed of the situation, tells him that he and his brethren will and that the general and his troops’s sacrifices will not be in vain.
Does anyone know the excerpt I’m talking about? Can you link it?
Yep, i know what you need to read.
In the Gaunts Ghosts novels, guardsmen are killing traitor marines left and right and they also are casually badass around loyal spacemarines.
Highlights of what you are looking for in the first novel are a soldier killing a hellbute 1v1 and then never speaking about it, because who would believe him, and one of the main characters winning a "hypothetical" battle he has with some whitescars, because he wired the whole place before they met
"We guardsmen know that we are expendable" or something like that.
Read that excerpt, can confirm. Can't link, but it's out there.
> To my mind, an astartes is nothing but a bioengineered weapon, to be used and discarded as situation requires. No different from a bullet
Tell me you never read a book about Astartes without telling me you never read a book about Astartes
>To my mind, an astartes is nothing but a bioengineered weapon, to be used and discarded as situation requires.
That's just flat out wrong. It's not how astartes work at all. Sorry the canon doesn't cater to your specific and weird fantasy about it.
Lotara sarin or however her name is spelled.
Of course there is an arrogance to the Astartes. They are engineered to feel indestructible. It’s part of what makes them so effective, they fight with a near single minded consideration for killing the enemy.
As they get older they start to learn a modicum of restraint and learn when to pull back and preserve themselves instead of seeking glorious battle. Until then most of them have sergeants and chaplains to ensure they are well used. Obviously there are some that come through the process more capable of free thinking and those are destined for promotion to those offices.
The life of a human isn’t worth more than the life of an Astartes. Nor is the reverse true. They should both be respectful of eachother. One marches into battle without the genetic gifts of the emporer and the finest gear the mechanicium can produce to protect them. The other has given up a significant portion of their humanity to become what the imperium needs. To call them nothing more than bio weapons and liken them to a bullet is no less arrogant and insensitive to what they are.
Also there are Astartes that see humanity as chaff but that is not all of them, most of them are just carrying out their orders and conditioning and as many of them respect humans and will risk their life to protect them.
The Astartes aren’t really treated as Demi gods as far as I’ve read. They create a sense of dread and awe in humans but the closest thing to Demi Gods the imperium has known are the saints and the Primarchs.
Finally Astartes don’t need reminding they are servants of the emperor. They are that first and foremost, which doesn’t necessarily equate to servants of the imperium, a distinction that has seen chapters declared traitors in the past even though the chapters themselves worship the emperor.