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Cold war in 1960 if Operation Valkyrie was sucessful

Cold war in 1960 if Operation Valkyrie was sucessful

Wonderful_Chair4354

Valkyrie shifted the world’s major power in Western Europe.


Entire-Shelter-693

And Germany would have a Population of at least 90 Million Their Economy would also surpase Japan qs they aren't just bigger but the East isn't weaker because of Decades of Communism Maybe after the Cold War the PPR unites with the FRG


Wonderful_Chair4354

What happened to Japan’s wartime fate after the assassination of Adolf Hitler?


Entire-Shelter-693

They see the same result as in our reality


Damikosin

Valkyrie was just a failed plot by some German nationalists, who like most Germans at the time were far from reality. Even if they succedeed Allies would simply demand and immidiate and unconditional surrender, which - while clearly a much better option than having millions more die and seeing German cities bombed and barraged by artillery - would in no way mean Germany would not be punished for starting another war and commiting war crimes on unheard-of level.


JOPAPatch

Given the time it occurred, even if Germany submitted to an unconditional surrender, it doesn’t mean the Soviet Union would be satisfied. If the USSR demanded more than what was initially agreed upon, it could lead to an Operation Unthinkable scenario


Damikosin

Obviously it cannot lead to any Operation Unthinkable scenario since the US wanted the USSR allied at all cost so as to ensure Japan surrenders quickly. If the USSR demands more than was agreed - BTW many things were only roughly agreed upon by then, so there was much room for considerations - it will most likely simply be given more as long as it does not lead to a major change in which case the USSR would simply be persuaded to not do this. In reality the Soviets were not given a free hand in Europe and here their position is somewhat weaker than IRL because Germany simply surrenders earlier. Nothing of this would however lead to Poland being robbed of half of its territory and not compensated in any way. And nothing would lead to Germany not be divided as to ensure it cannot start another war.


JOPAPatch

You’re using your own preconceived notions that the hypothetical war would happen immediately following the surrender and not months if not a year afterwards. Had Germany been defeated earlier, the USSR could’ve demanded territorial gains without controlling them. If denied, they could find themselves in another war. The Soviets had plans of their own to attack Germany before Barbarossa. They had attacked Poland with the Germans, were fighting Finland on their own, and had plans for taking back the Baltics. If unable to get the territory they wanted, they would likely start their own war, especially if they could claim the Western Allies were not deNazifying Germany as promised (which historically happened in West Germany). It didn’t happen in our timeline because the USSR was able to clamp down on eastern Germany, preventing them from ever being a threat again.


Viisaus

The Allies had already agreed in Malta that they would only accept an unconditional surrender from Germany, nothing less. The July plot succeeding would only see the Germans accepting that fact before the Battle of Berlin.


JimiQ84

Yalta was 7 months after Valkyrie (february 1945). So it wasn’t decided before


kaceymonk

*Yalta!


AestheticReception

Still a plausible map since west Germany claimed the eastern lands until 1990


Damikosin

Truth be told noone would accept any conditions were almost-defeated Germany in 1944 starts acting like it just want to end the war as if nothing happened. As you pointed out even if Operation Valkytie succedeed it wouldn't result in any more gain for Germany than sparing it somewhat from wartime destruction. The boundary changes were already well discussed starting in 1942, then 1943 during the Tehran conference and nothing would allow Germany to keep all these lands. Especially since noone of any sanity left, be it Roosevelt, Churchil or Stalin would take so much land from Poland which was among the first Allies and not give it any compensation. This map here is simply another Big Germany jerking without anything in common with reality.


ArcherTheBoi

Valkyrie wasn't going to change anything.


Entire-Shelter-693

This Scenario:A group of generals take Power Power surrender but only to the allies and send everything to the east. The Allies capture Germany and kinda don't give anything to the USSR


ArcherTheBoi

I know what Valkyrie was, I studied it in detail. The issue is, the Allies had agreed on how to deal with Germany long before Valkyrie. The stage was already set - Germany was going to be occupied and divided, no matter who led it. The Allies specifically agreed that they would not accept a surrender to one party. Only total surrender was going to be accepted. Also many, if not most of the Valkyrie plotters were nazis. Some, like Tresckow, weren't nazis but reactionary monarchists who were hated by the Allies just as much as they did the nazis. And those monarchists were still pretty fucking unpleasant militarists who supported nazi aggression.


ZookeepergameTrue681

There may be some slack given considering that by this time, Churchill feared Stalin as much as he feared Hitler,and he may wish to keep a strong government in power in Germany in order to balance out the threat of the USSR.


kaceymonk

Churchill didn't call the shots anymore, the Americans did.


ZookeepergameTrue681

Churchill was still part of the big 3, and could definitely say something to FDR on the lines of 'preventing further death in europe'


HiddenLordGhost

He could, and he would be ignored in this regard. It was decided beforehand, that the surrender is not going to be conditional, and in this case only two people really called shots anymore - and Churchill is not one of those.


Entire-Shelter-693

Actually Germany should been divided into many states but it doesn't happen because of the Cold War And Actually there were even Plans where the Soviets barely get anything at all and the borders were roughly where they meet And Russia occupied lands in Germany (Prussian People's Republic/PPR)


x1WOLF101x

So Germany still surrenders unconditionally but just to the allies with the hopes that they might make it out alive?


1andro4nicus01

Trescow was a fan of the British style of government so you are talking out of your ass. Studied in detail he says lmao.


ArcherTheBoi

One can in fact support a constitutional monarchy while being a reactionary asshole. So was Churchill.


1andro4nicus01

You don’t know what reactionary means apparently. A parliamentary democracy is not reactionary in any sort of way.


ArcherTheBoi

reactionary /rɪˈakʃ(ə)n(ə)ri/ adjective opposing political or social progress or reform. One...can in fact oppose social progress while believing in parliamentary democracy. Shocking, I know. Churchill did. De Valera did. Ronald Reagan did.


1andro4nicus01

Sure but trescow was not reactionary in his timeframe and country. Wanting a parliamentary monarchy in 1941 Germany made you a revolutionary.


kaceymonk

You forgot to mention the inevitable civil war.


poklane

If anything it would have accelerated Germany's defeat due to all German factions no longer fighting for the same cause with their leader dead as well.


wortwortwort227

When you close your eyes


USRM-ambassador

What is operation Valkyrie?


Entire-Shelter-693

It was a plan made by German Generals to kill hitler and take Power and surrender to get at least a better Treaty. It happened in Summer 1944 soon after D-Day but Hitler survived. Stauffenberg or Rommel would been killed/have to comit suicide


kaceymonk

That's incorrect. Valkyrie was a emergency continuity of government plan using the armed forces in the event of a total breakdown of civil order.^(I can read Wikipedia, and so can you!) The July 20 conspirators intended to use Valkyrie to seize power, but killing Hitler wasn't part of Valkyrie itself.


Entire-Shelter-693

They literally tried to bomb him


kaceymonk

They did, and *then* they tried to implement Valkyrie. Valkyrie was a Nazi government plan that the conspirators merely wanted to use for their own purposes. Seriously, there's a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie).


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Operation Valkyrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie)** >Operation Valkyrie (German: Unternehmen Walküre) was a German World War II emergency continuity of government operations plan issued to the Territorial Reserve Army of Germany to execute and implement in the event of a general breakdown in civil order of the nation. Failure of the government to maintain control of civil affairs might have been caused by the Allied bombing of German cities, or uprising of the millions of foreign forced labourers working in German factories. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


Anime_police1

oh yes finally another big germany wank map!


DrCerebralPalsy

Its not exaclty "big Germany" though is it? Its more traditional borders Germany


kaceymonk

"Traditional"


HomelandersHairgel

The last year Germany could have realistically made a conditional surrender would have been 1943. That's happening solely because the Soviets don't want to encounter additional defeats and lose millions more people.