It isn't always obvious, but broken down, this is exactly what it is
By - imjustheretodomyjob
The amount of men in this comment section making excuses is pissing me the fuck off.
THIS. 👏🏾 IS. 👏🏾 WHY. 👏🏾 WOMEN. 👏🏾 DON'T. 👏🏾 TRUST. 👏🏾 US. 👏🏾
No lie, men are trash and set the bar low. I might be low key toxic cuz I’m wishy washy when it comes to relationships but y’all really be out here not valuing people as individuals and that’s nuts to me. Like how can you sit there and not like women, they have a whole different perspective of life they can help expand your mind on. Plus they like the same shit we do and some of them could school you on some stuff. You know who likes sports, sex, doing dumb shit, drugs, hiking, video games, etc and all the other things your homies like to do? Women, but it sucks cuz most women can’t even show us that because they are scared of us men. I have a home girl who likes to kick it with me and one of the biggest reasons is “because I feel safe and know you won’t fuck me up if we disagree on something.” Like got damn some of y’all dudes are trash.
this type of support is invaluable. im sure your friend really appreciates you.
i work in a field that's male dominated and i asked one of my female coworkers what i should do when my male teammates are treating me like shit, and she said it's not about you or your gender so you don't need to do anything. it reminded me that im a person and that other people will always find a reason to be ugly when that's what they are.
The kitchen I’m in now is the first kitchen I’ve been in with more then one woman who works as a line cook
Safety is key! Because of harm from men in relationships, safety is my number one. I may not be physically attracted to you, but if I feel safe, that is a huge factor of where and how I’m spending my time.
"men are trash" is an excuse
Acknowledging someone as a piece of shit doesn’t excuse them from their shitty behavior
maybe in this specific use, by you, right now. in history, "men are pigs" has been used to metaphorically throw ones hands up, as if it is just something built in to men. "well, what do you expect? men are trash."
Yeah, it's really no different than "boys will be boys."
More like it starts out as, "boys will be boys" and they evolves into, "men are trash".
Eventually we have to acknowledge, as a society that we create out own monsters.
We teach and condition young boys to percieve woman and their relationship to them a certain way and act all surprised when they do just that when they grow up, like...duh.
It’s actually very different, “men are trash,” is a sad reality you have to accept and be aware of when interacting with men in general, that goes for men and women. I have to accept that most of my friends are pieces of shit just like women have to accept most dudes are using them as sexual objects.
“Boys will be boys,” is a way of saying that behavior is fine, because guys can’t control themselves and it really isn’t that bad anyway.
Thank you for saying it. It’s like it has no grounds when we say it ourselves.
It’s so annoying! How are they gonna “you’re entitled to your opinion” when we are talking about the welfare of an entire demographic of society falling victim to actual violence and suffering? My “opinion” is that I don’t want to have to worry about whether or not I’m gonna be [email protected], and you have a rebuttal? Excuse me?! Fuck you very much 😤
If I had an award. It would be yours.
Don't have it in me today to venture down to that part of the comments, but thank you for saying something.
I went cold reading this tweet thread. Finally noticing this shitty mentality living in my head and beginning the process of ripping it out was one of the struggles of my mid 20's.
Guys, if you see yourself in this, it does not mean it has to be some fixed feature of your personality or you are just broken or whatever. This is shit you can change but only if you see it as the problem it is, and then take the steps to quiet its presence in your mind.
This is for sure what pisses me off. Fucking men and I say that as a man myself. Bunch of babies.
Imagine you beat the ever loving shit out of a person while they told you to stop. Then they kicked you in the nuts once, and you whined and went “I thought you were trying to end the violence!”. That’s the energy of this trash ass comment section.
Straight up it’s more than just engrained misogyny. It’s also recognizing that correcting the misogyny doesn’t mean that the hurt caused by the misogyny evaporates overnight.
A few years back my wife had to check me on my behavior towards her and I had to wake the fuck up about my own bullshit.
I have a kink, right? I enjoy expressing it, but when we first got together, I had never really dealt with how to have a willing participant. So she’s down to indulge me, and I promptly pushed her so far out of comfort zone that I basically traumatized her. She naturally stopped indulging me, and I resented her “sudden dislike” of it so much that I almost tore our marriage apart.
It took me going to therapy, totally over-correcting, letting further resentment build, going *back* to therapy and finding a happy medium that mostly involved communicating to understand her feelings and further communicating about how I can express myself, while still not making her feel compelled to participate.
I make no bones about it. We both sucked at communication and either of us could have taken corrective action far before our marriage was so deeply threatened.
But the problem doesn’t even exist if I didn’t look at her as the fulfillment of my every sexual whim. My basic lack of respect for her as a person is the root of the issue that we’re *still* navigating our way through.
Well said, and props for putting this out there online 👏
And it is learned behavior.
I agree, right up until the last tweet, which is basically 'how can I be racist, I'm black?'
The point of view she's describing is bad whether it's from a man towards a woman, or a woman towards a man, even though the former is much more pervasive.
> I agree, right up until the last tweet, which is basically 'how can I be racist, I'm black?'
That’s exactly the point though. Women experience *structural* sexism that underpins interpersonal sexism, and Black people experience structural racism that underpins interpersonal racism.
That interpersonal interaction carries a lot more weight and baggage when there’s an entire system of disadvantage that comes with it. Think about, for instance, the Victoria’s Secret Karen who tried to assault a black woman then turned herself into the victim and called the police on the *black woman SHE assaulted*. And the police backed her (the white woman) up.
It’s about ‘who has power’ (social, political, economic power) here, which makes it different.
Noone is arguing white people are victims of the same type of racism as black people, but that's completely different to "black people _cannot_ be racist" because even if we ignore examples of black on white racism (because its interpersonal, not structural) the amount of racism against Asian people in the black community is astounding.
She didn't say that though, she just said the two things aren't the same
Ya she said for one person to say the exact same thing isn’t as wrong, somehow.
Ans then just assumed a lot about how the guy meant it, and what it would somehow lead to. That’s silly.
Of course they're not the same, but this is a nuanced issue and both statements are negative and don't help anyone. Reacting to misogyny with misandry won't make the misogyny go away. The way women are treated is oftentimes very horrible, and its completely understandable that theyd want to lash out and they can rightfully criticise misogynists. Reversing a misogynists logic on them might seem like a good way to show them how absurd their logic is, but it'll just foster more hate.
"Reacting to misogyny with misandry won't make the misogyny go away."
This right fucking here. This is why I've been hesitant to call myself feminist, despite my values all clearly aligning with it. An eye for an eye makes us all blind, not better off.
I've been sexually abused. Having every man out there doesn't undo that. It would just be petty, overgeneralized vengeance.
stepping on someone else to lift yourself up is shitty, no matter the context.
She did though? Like right there.
You're right that it's not the same tho
She said it's "ridiculous to compare" them
it's not claiming women can't be sexist. it's claiming that sexism from women has no practical effect on society.
Have you never been a child? Are we supposed to pretend that there aren't female judges, police officers, teachers, administrators, etc. How doesn't female sexism matter when women hold plenty of positions of power, more than enough for it to matter in many lives.
This whole thread, damn, I have little to contribute right now but I'm glad I'm reading all this. Just crazy seeing many of the questions I've had at times being hashed out with thoroughness.
Definitely though, all forms of bigotry go both ways and I'm realizing how so often the media/bigot basically brushes it off as "well that wasn't me" whenever it's a clear cut case of interpersonal bigotry but people seem to miss that it is the systemic issues that allow so much interpersonal bigotry. When we are held accountable at an personal level, that means the systemic issues have been resolved, out at least identified and actively mitigated.
I appreciate the wisdom “little to contribute… glad I’m reading” sometimes we just gotta step back and learn. Also willing to take that approach vs. everyone else in this thread with they mind made up like one way knows better
Yeah, that kind of a final comment really underwrites the points about agency she was making earlier. There genuinely are women who are doing amazing things, putting themselves in positions of great power and influence over other people and laying the groundwork for their opinions and biases to start having institutional effects over other people.
Having power and agency means that it's important to start reigning in your shitty opinions. It feels like to say "Oh their sexism doesn't matter because it doesn't have any systemic impact" you need to write off all of the power that women do have in so many systems and institutions.
i think it's naive to say that sexism from women has no practical effect on society. half of the times women regurgitate the same sexist views that plenty of men have. are you going to say this does nothing?
if a child grows up in any sort of hateful environment, whether it be racist, misogynistic, misandrist, etc. they will either promote those hateful stances, be hateful vs the side that hated them, or if they get exposed to some healthy people, actually be able to see them all as problematic. the latter is by far the least likely and the most difficult to achieve.
sorry, I wasn't very specific because I wasn't expecting a debate. I'll clarify and then stop responding.
sexism *from* women directed *at* men has a marginal-to-negligible effect on most "western" society, because it is like pissing in the ocean and expecting whales to choke on your dick.
Are you saying white women have no power in society to vilify or negatively effect black men? Have you ever heard of Emmet till?
Using the fact that western society was built on patriarchal belief systems to justify misandry against all men on an individual level seems like a dishonest take on the principles of feminism. Gender equality shouldn't allow hating people for their gender.
EDIT: Clarified myself
And vice versa though. To be fair. Asians can be openly horribly racist to black people.
Yeah this is always ignored on Reddit though, conveniently
I like how this post is about misogyny and Reddit still found a way to say “but fuck black people” it’s really a talent at this point. As a black person it’s super amusing to watch literally any random thread devolve somewhere into griping about black people, yet we’re the ones being told we’re obsessed with race.
I mean, ya sure. But on the personal level you can still be a nasty and hateful person towards a whole sex. And I don't think taking motivations into account absolves anything here.
Hey if men dont experience structural sexism why do men face harsher treatment than women at every level of the legal system in the exact same circumstances? The disparity is even greater than between white and black people
There is a subtle difference between the language of the oppressed and language of the oppressor and how it is used. I see it more like the oppressed is using it more mockingly and venting. Like how "all men are X". Like I understand that not all men are rapists/stupid/assholes/etc. and I understand it is a statement trying to express frustration.
And before any one bring up examples of SJW's or woke people or whatever strawmans, there are definitely people who mean what they say but a majority do not. This is why you see women or feminists denounce when a woman is being abusive to men.
That’s still doesn’t mean you can assume what the guy said was meant in any worse way than when a woman makes the same comment.
You can’t say you know the women in his life haven’t been awful. You can’t say he will surely now abuse or treat women like objects.
I believe what she's getting at is that there's a difference between "I don't like X group bc I don't see them as people" and "I don't like X group bc *they* don't see *me* as people". It's no excuse for misandry, to be sure, but it's at least a little more understandable.
Yeah a big problem with the last tweet is that probably the majority are trying to express how shitty men can be towards them, it can sound like it is excusing people that are just being shitty.
Hard disagree. I try to treat others with compassion and love but when people hurt me I struggle to treat them with those values. Does it mean I could do better? Maybe, but to say that my actions and the actions of those who cause me pain are the same is asinine.
She's not saying this is an ideal, but if women distrust or even dislike men because of negative experiences of living in a patriarchal world then its understandable. Instead of putting the responsibility for being better on those women we need to put it on the men who gave them good reason to distrust and dislike.
It took me a while to understand the arguments against "not all men" responses. When confronted with examples of institutional misogyny and sexism, the response of decent people should be to fight against those forces. The response should not be, "but what about me? *I'm* not like that!"
Typing that out now, maybe it shouldn't have taken me so long...
The distinction between her tweet and your example is that she is focusing on the comparison between men saying it and women saying it.
That lack of comparability is what she’s emphasizing, in my read. And I agree that this is absolutely worth highlighting because if we don’t, it opens the field to misogynists defending themselves with false comparisons and framing themselves as the victims.
Men are the primary exploiters, abusers, rapists, murderers, denigraters and discriminate against women...not the other way around.
When women say men aren't shit its because of the abuse men have heaped on women for millions of years....when men say women aren't shit they're whining about one woman who is no longer putting up with their BS.
I’ve found myself saying “I don’t exist for you” too many times to count.
I’m slowly getting there and the thought alone is agony
I’m slowly getting there and that thought alone is scary
It’s hard to realize something you love doesn’t truly love you back. I’m sorry about that and I hope you figure it out. Love yourself first.
She broke it down in such a way that NO ONE should or could misunderstand. However, I see that some folks are CHOOSING to ignore her entire point all because their lil' feelings got hurt cause she spoke the TRUTH.
I mean, you know a tree by the fruit it bears, right?
Men, the “logical “ gender looooove misunderstanding simple things. Then they kick it up a notch and invalidate those simple things they don’t understand.
So logical! 🤡
Not trying to make myself sound special but I can read this post trying to learn and empathize with the message without feeling attacked. I celebrate women and don’t feel like I was described in this post but that doesn’t mean I still cannot learn from this or gain perspective.
If someone felt attacked in OPs message, then truth hurts for real.
I was thinking the same thing. If someone read this message and felt attacked...they might want to take a look at thierself, because I've got some bad news.
These types of reactions are the same reactions people have when someone brings up racism...if someone is having these reactions, they're not so low-key showing who they really are.
the FEE FEES
Just parroting, but she really broke the whole system down. Is she some sort of activist or educator? That was a chef's kiss on misogyny. I don't think I heard a better one in all my schooling.
>I mean, you know a tree by the fruit it bears, right?
*Weelllll* (fans self) I see we having church today. 👏🏾👏🏾
Men out here killing women because they broke up with them and there's dudes in here thinking nothing is wrong. Madness.
Or dudes saying “bUt WoMeN wAnT mE tO pAy FoR mEAls 😢😢😢😢
“Equality at my convenience and your inconvenience”
This woman was shot to death after her baby shower recently and there are so many similar cases like this. It happens every day.
Yup. Every day.
There's some prick arguing with me that women do it as much men and his example was "sHaRoN OsBoRnE SaID ShEd CuT OfF A MaNs PeNiS AnD EbErYoNe LaUgHeD"
Seriously? That's nowhere near the same thing as shooting a woman in the head because she declined to give her number. But okay.
Agreed, he's a pretty obvious troll. His account is like 10 minutes old and he's farming downvotes already.
I don't know what they get out of that
Now that's (along with a lot of shit) insane. Or those stories where women refuse catcalls and are assaulted. Like no sane person can think that's ok.
The comment section proves it, too
Sorting by controversial now. Wish me luck! 💀
I feel people like Steve Harvey help to perpetuate this bullshit. Steve says men and women cannot be friends because men just want to have sex with women. Almost all of my friends are women and I have no desire to sleep with them. I feel men and women can be friends as long as there are set boundaries and both parties understand what the friendship is. Both have to see others as more than an object of sex or someone to get something from.
That's an interesting observation about how seemingly harmless statements can add to a kind of misogyny that's already prevalent - and, too many, invisible.
I've never seen it as harmless. I feel like there were groups of womrn that took that as law. My relationships have been strained due to the overwhelming number of friends I have that are women. I'm a nurse practitioner. In the field of nursing , which is 97% female dominated, I met literally all of friends. Most of those, except 2 are women. I talk/text them daily and we hang out like I would with the homies. Never any funny business. But because of statements like that, women are taking that to heart. Which makes them uncomfortable with me having friends that are women. No matter what I say they won't belive there's no chance of anything happening between us.
That’s such a cringe take. Even when I dated men I had male homies. Women have value, humor, and humanity outside of sex.
I think the secret, not secret reason Harvey is insidious is religion. Religions are almost all 99% a total patriarchy. Some interpret religion to be good people, but if you grow up in that system, you are by default going to be low key sexist.
I agree to some extent. For sure religion is male dominant. It's up to each individual to break free and make their own decisions. But yeah you're right religion teaches us women are inferior and they are to obey their husbands.
Sadly I feel like religion just shoots itself in the foot, by not just modernizing that shit faster. I have no hate for people who cherry pick the love and the respect, but like... for real, you gonna take the rules of a goat farmer to apply to what you cook in your microwave?? lol
Straight men fucking terrify me.
edit: Straight dudes big mad in the comments. As expected.
Becoming outwardly bisexual made me realize how toxic straight male culture is. I love my bros, sometimes in very homoerotic ways, but once you're outside and looking in straight men are dangerous and toxic.
I was abt to say this!! Im a bisexual guy (HEAVILY leaned towards men), and ive had SOOO many female friends in my life that i cherish so much! Queer girls inclouded. People tend to think im sexualy intrested to them (even the girls theirself have thought so or their parents) but im just generaly atracted to woman (and people in general) becouse they are good people with the kindest of hearts! Maby its just the straight pov, i dont have anything against str8 people, but i think ur on to something! As a guy intrested in guys, other guys have treated me diffrently, even tho im still a guy. So in theory this could just mean they see what they think as default bottoms as automaticly JUST objets to get on with. Im just a kid still so i may not be understanding things properly, but thats just what ive seen. My friend group is composed of 5 girls (all queer) and 4 guys me inclouded. 2 of the men are bi (me and anothe friend) and anothe 2 are str8. Those two guys are some of the best people ive known and truly value women as WHO they are and not WHAT they are, like other men str8 or not should. Im glad to have such good friends and im glad this is being adressed more recently!
Aww this is beautiful to see, especially for a young guy. Keep learning and keep growing, friend! Keep interrogating status quo’s and being unapologetically you. Shine your light! It’s an aside from the theme of this convo but just wanted to say that!
Hey dude I’m 43 and queer very similar story except I kept a lot hidden when I was your age. I think you’re awesome for being so open I’m so much happier being the same (started coming out in my early 20s).
Just wanted to validate what you’re saying and I noticed the same thing when I was becoming more open about dating guys. It’s weird for me because when I take a girl on a date society kind of expects me to take the lead, but it’s also expected for me to “follow” as a bottom with a guy as well so we see this argument in a different way. It’s a unique perspective to have since we’re in both “worlds” so to speak so when straight people argue I just watch and learn. It helps even within my little queer community of friends.
Comes up a lot when I meet questioning or curious guys, too, it’s like their default to women pops up and we get a glimpse of what this chick is talking about even though we have dicks and do “guy things” as men.
The bottom line (no pun intended) is just be yourself I think and ask people to be themselves around you. Take as much pressure off the table as possible, don’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, and stay safe.
There’s an added layer here of straight women not appreciating and/or taking advantage of queer men by using social cues aimed at straight men as well so beware of that but that’s a totally different conversation.
I hate that Im part of such a large group (straight white male) that is overwhelmingly problematic. At this point all I feel I can do is be the best person I can be every day, and call out and correct toxic behavior wherever possible.
I just wish there was a more active way to be an ally
Calling out toxic behavior is literally the best thing you can do! The people doing this stuff aren’t going to listen to women. But they will listen to their buddy.
Be the one show your friends the light. It what we need the most
Become Keanu Reeves
I thought it was enough that some people were scared of me because I’m black, but now it’s because I’m straight too?
Why is this at all an appropriate thing to say about someone or a group?
Half the population is mad at being generalized into one group? That's so fucking weird...
Me and my sisters had this conversation a month ago when we were talking about my sister’s ain’t shit baby daddy. We went out to eat somewhere for one of my other sisters birthdays, she ate the complementary bread, and the bread had an egg wash that she didn’t know about (and she’s allergic to eggs). She was sitting there struggling to not throw up, and her baby daddy still need to drop his older kids off in Far Rockaway. She said, ‘I’m gonna go home with one of my other sisters, since it’s going to take too long’, and Baby Daddy was telling her she was being overdramatic. It wasn’t until my other sister’s husband found out that she was having an allergic reaction and made a big deal about it that the first baby daddy acknowledged it as a problem.
He only believed it was a problem when another man thought it was a problem. When it was just her and her sisters, she was being overdramatic. That’s how simple misogyny is. People invalidating the experiences and feelings of women because they don’t have the humanity that they believe men do.
That's so fucked. I can't count how many times I told my wife to be stubborn and stern with the doctor who is checking her because there's a chance they won't take her pain seriously.
Exactly!!! I literally was so worried to go to male doctor because I was so sure they wouldn’t take my concerns seriously. Luckily he did well with me, but something so simple shouldn’t give me so much concern.
As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized these unfortunate times are when I “need a penis to explain it to him” and that penis is my husband.
It really hit me after I explained that the electrician my uncle recommended was stealing our tools and when I mentioned this I was, “Just like my mother.” [?] but as soon as I said, “Well, my husband was pretty pissed after he pulled our socket set out of the back of guys truck.” he was like, “Oh, well that’s a problem then.”
All this time I’d been thinking it was *me*. That short conversation FINALLY woke my dumb ass up.
I wasn’t crazy.
I wasn’t hysterical.
I wasn’t overreacting.
That conversation was like, 15 years ago and I’m so, so grateful for it.
Look, I know when I might be oversensitive or overwhelmed and I also know when I’m not. I trust ME and my feelings now; not the gaslighter.
I've noticed this inany relationships before.
Sometimes I have to wonder if the way we treat romantic relationships, particularly between males and females, is fundamentally flawed. Most of the culture behind how these relationships form, e.g. dating culture, is essentially a society accepted power struggle.
"It's a push and pull", "don't play all your cards at once", "don't show any weakness", " don't let her get away with it", etc. These are usually the kind of stuff you hear where dating or courtship is involved.
I just find it interesting that we play into the power dynamic during the formative stages of relationships and proudly call it "the game", but turn around and frown upon it when it manifests itself in the actual relationship.
I guess it's just weird to me how much power plays a role in most romantic relationships.
Obviously, I have no idea what the dynamic is between the people you're talking about, but I wouldn't be surprised if dude listened to the other guy because he subconsciously respected his authority over he respected your sister, not because he hates her (again, I have no idea what I'm talking about here) or doesn't value her voice, but because subconsciously, giving credence to her would upset some form of unspoken power dynamic.
My mom loved her first husband very much, but I remember her saying a few things about him that were definitely sexism in action. One was that she'd pitch an idea or piece of advice and he'd ignore it. But if someone else, like one of his make friends, suggested the sane thing, it was suddenly a great idea.
He also never changed diapers and apparently would help a neighbor move their whole house across town but wouldn't wash the dishes. 🙄
Which is why classes for domestic batterers stay full.
Lol it's honestly not hard to find. I don't think people understand how much they unintentionally show/give away in everyday conversation. There are very specific red flags that I literally will not fuck with- I won't even always point them out- I will just let you do you.
There are a lot of men that have had trauma related to women and it fuels and intense hatred; "understandably so". They tolerate women because they may recognize the need for feminine/woman related things but overall an intense distrust overshadows everything.
Yup. The "I don't have female friends" one was one I had to learn the hard way early. But often times they show you early on.
Yes, and the traumas, let's be real are like 95% at girl wasn't nice to them when they turned them down.
Men love to talk about how they were in relationships with abusive girls as if that's not the same for women, we all have bad relationships with emotional abuse, but on the whole, the numbers are CLEAR, men traumatized women in more ways more often.
For every sad guy who is fighting a greedy ex in divorce court there are 20 single moms fighting for child support.
According to the stats, women are more likely to commit domestic violence than men. When men do get violent the result tends to be much worse, but countless men are routinely subjected to "low level" physical violence by female partners.
Link the stats
I did, below. But I'll repost here.
> An especially controversial aspect of the gender symmetry debate is the notion of bidirectional or reciprocal IPV (i.e. when both parties commit violent acts against one another). Findings regarding bidirectional violence are particularly controversial because, if accepted, they can serve to undermine one of the most commonly cited reasons for female perpetrated IPV; self-defense against a controlling male partner. Despite this, many studies have found evidence of high levels of bidirectionality in cases where women have reported IPV. For example, social activist Erin Pizzey, who established the first women's shelter in the U.K. in 1971, found that 62 of the first 100 women admitted to the centre were "violence-prone," and just as violent as the men they were leaving. The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of IPV cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data. The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional. A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence. However, men were more likely to inflict injury than women.
Facts,but very people want to acknowledge trauma, how it dictates how you see Women/Men and what treatment you normalize/internalize & perpetuate.
As you said, it's easy. People tell & show you exactly what they are.
Men don’t care about the life support system attached to the pussy they want to use
Analogous to men not caring about the planet while they exploit its resources. They want the service and resources without an interest in respecting its life cycles.
Similarly, men use women as emotional support: as house cleaners, for sex, and to birth and raise their offspring, without a thought for women's need to rejuvenate at times. Men's version of "love" is often this disembodied ideal that has more to do with the need to hyper-fixate on the object of their desire, than any true affection for the human being in front of them. The same level of sociopathy is applied to the environmentalism movement, where a lot of words are said, but mostly the progression has been towards finding new frontiers to extract, not accountability.
> A feminist woman living a privileged, comfortable life in a first world Western country, consuming a hundred times more resources per capita than the vast majority of men on the planet, has decided that men are to blame for climate change.
Sad how other men belittle other men for respecting their queens and being femenists. Like bro shut the fck up, hatred towards women was taught and you listened and implemented it like a little dumb puppet. I know some of you want to call me a "simp" or see me as less masculine because your twisted perception has made you believe hitting women and disrespecting them makes you a man but really it just makes you a sissy. How dare you have the balls to touch a lady but not someone your own size.
To all the ladies out there keep your heads up because true equality and love is coming and the old ways of bigotry are coming to an end. One love 🇬🇧
It's a whole lot of people reading the word "all" where it is not written. Where have I seen that before, asks the Black Lives Matter movement?
Don't try on shoes you ain't sposta fit.
Tbh I kinda needed it broken down for me cuz I’m dumb but now I know how to articulate what misogyny is when someone I know says some dumb shit.
Can we get her to also explain why lesbian women like dildos but not penis? I mean I know why, we all know why but it’s such a stupid fuckin thing to say that I’m paralyzed in its brazen idiocy and the other person thinks they’ve made a solid point cuz I don’t know how to un-stupid their argument.
Men got mouths too, you finna let one blow you just cause you like getting blown by women?
Shit that’s a solid reply. I was hoping for a more academic response but whatever works.
Simplicity is the best form of genius, stay curious bro
You were hoping for an academic response to the question "but why lesbians like dildos?"?
Why not? This guy is asking for everyday use arguments to promote healthy treatment of women... let the man ask and get his answers.
He straight said he knows why and we all know why. Pretty sure he's stating that the argument itself is ridiculous just like the other arguments and he doesn't get why people think that way.
I'll have a go at academic: women with vaginas across sexual orientations frequently experience intense pleasurable sensations in response to different types of stimulation of the vaginal canal. A wide variety of objects can facilitate such stimulation and may or may not include human male genitalia, replicas of varying degrees of realism thereof, and many other objects of sufficient rigidity, suitable dimensions, and appropriate surface texture, with wide inter-individual variation as to which objects do or do not fulfill said criteria.
I had to read this three times before I could fully understand it lmao.
Yeah, u/miguelss96's reply has much more of a ring to it lol.
this is the proper response.
Put simply: erogenous zones don't care about your sexuality. Female g-spot: about an inch inside the vagina on the interior wall; easy to stimulate with a dildo. The entire vagina is lined with nerves, and to hit it all at once: dildo. Compare the average vibrator to a penis though, and you'd be pressed to find any similarity bar the vague shape. They're firmer, brightly coloured, smoother, have protrusions in different places etc. Women like the shape of the toy, but don't want a man connected to it.
The male g-spot is in the anus (your prostate) -- about 2-3in in, anterior wall. You're not gay if you like a woman sticking her fingers or a toy in there. You like the feeling and the shape of the toy... but don't want a man connected to it.
The majority of nerves in the vagina are located around the entrance. The further in, the less specifics, generally.
The entire vag isn’t lined with nerves. You mostly can’t tell what’s in there or where. We just feel pressure.
Speak for your own vagina!
A penis is attached to a man, hence you'd have to be with a man. Lesbians don't like men sexually. A dildo is a dick shaped device that pleasures you, not attached to a person. It gives sexual pleasure with no man involved. One is a tool, one is a whole person.
Dildoes are shaped like the inside of a vagina.
You can customize a dildo, down to color, size, length, and girth. Can even mount it on the shelf as a work of art or toss it in a drawer or box.
Can't do that with a penis, unless you're into taxidermy.
This is why gay couples are insulted by the “which one of you is the woman” or “who wears the pants” questions . It’s not just because we don’t like having a heteronormative standard imposed on our relationships. It’s because we are repulsed by the inherent inequity of that standard.
It's ignorance though, if you're not really exposed to non heterosexual relationships then it's pretty difficult to understand. I had it explained to me at a young ish age but most people don't.
I do think that it's a bit unfair that that non hetero people are subject to way more sexual questions though. The question of "who's the woman" is about the sexual side as well as the domestic.
So many questions I have, but I'll ask them cause I'm cool with the inevitable downvotes.
1) Why do men always get treated as a monolith when it comes to negative aspects of manhood? Sure *some* men are misogynists. And yet any attempt to say, "hey, we don't all think like this" gets met with endless shouts of "oh look another apologist" or "you're trying to nullify women's voices" when all we might be saying is, nah sis, you're probably not talking about the majority here.
2) I as a man can never speak to confidently and authoritatively about what other genders think. It is amazing to me that a person who has never experienced my biological reality can speak for ALL or even MOST of THE people of that gender. Imagine if I got on Saul Williams' Internet and started arguing off one tweet that because one woman tweeted that she didn't mind cooking for a date to get dick but she hated cooking for men in any other circumstance cause they don't deserve it, that most women had internalised misandry and hate men. Y'all would look at me like I'm dumb.
3) There is another possible explanation beyond hate. Women simply think differently to us. Sometimes that is amazing to experience, and sometimes that puts us out of our comfort zone. Some of us might like the Notebook and not realize till a chick makes us watch it, some of us might hate it. Some might have a lot of fun picnicking, which you'd normally never think to do with your male friends, and some might not be able to stand it. Maybe this is a guy whose limited experience with women constantly puts him out of his comfort zone and he doesn't enjoy it, which he expresses crudely. That can have nothing to do with women or hating them, but the conclusion jumped to is **already** about why men are the problem. Cause Ol' Boy wasn't Shakespeare on Twitter.
I have an answer for #1 — it’s because we *know* it’s not all men, but if we’re trying to make a point about something, it’s less productive to go “oh yes of course not you, sweetie”. Kinda like how the whole “all lives matter” thing isn’t a productive response to the blm movement — yes it’s true, but detracts from the issue at hand, you feel?
Is it really more productive to say "all men"? Like for one any time I've seen seen woman do these mass generalizations they're pretty much always wrong and then things devolve into the not all men debates. Why not just say "some men" and understand that as a woman you're not an authority on what men do, the same way I'm not an authority on women because I'm a man?
Men aren't all billionaire ceos and law makers, we shouldn't be treated like we are in these conversations
Isn't he making the opposite point here? Or I'm just reading wrong. He said that a smaller group of shitty men is a problem, not the majority, but the majority get heat for it unnecessarily. Not saying anything about women don't matter, all people matter sort of context.
But is the initial point productive? I wouldn't say so. But I'm a man and therefore biased and probably all types of other fucked up. I'm black, 28, and haven't been to therapy yet and crying is really hard even though I'd like to do it.
I just treat women with respect. No pedestals, no... whatever the opposite of a pedestal is, until they show me that's where they go (see Candace Owens, Parris Denard, etc). I look at souls.
I agree with you but it’s a two way street. If a man complains about women in any negative light especially on Reddit, women will come in droves of anecdotal‘s of not all women stories.
But these generalizations of all men typically harm marginalized men. It gives consent to murder and harm marginalized men because they are stereotypically seen as brutish beasts who harm women. I think it’s productive to not conflate the oppressed men with the oppressive men.
>Why do men always get treated as a monolith when it comes to negative aspects of manhood?
The culture of masculinity is set and determined by men. Men aren't a monolith, but you should be policing one another for shitty behavior.
When a woman complains about men, she says "Men have done this to me". She may have even specifically named a man, but the men around her instead of jumping to "that was shitty, we should talk to him" jump straight to "but I didn't do it and I'm tired of you talking to me about it".
>Y'all would look at me like I'm dumb.
Because you would be. You're seriously trying to conflate a woman willing to cook for dick (exchange labor for service) with a man flat out saying he doesn't like women.
3) I mean he could have also spent a lifetime of being sexualized and aggressively pursued and commented by women who were much older than him from an unacceptably young age, since we are trying to make excuses for someone who literally just said they are OK with the sex-hole, but don't like the person attached to it.
Plenty of men jump to say that's fucked up, literally 90 percent of the men in these comments have said that. The comment you're reading here is just expressing a different opinion, because we're so tired of trying to be allies and still getting called names and grouped together. Literally the first reply to the top comment starts with "all men are trash". I'm so tired of this. Say whatever you want to try and "refute" me but I don't want an argument, I'm just trying to express how this makes me feel.
This perfectly sums it up. The average man is not a virulent sexist who beaten rapes women and upholds the system of structural misogyny. The average man is another underpaid overworked cog in the machine just like the rest of us and holding us all accountable for the sins of the statistically small amount of our population is extremely tiring. I do my best to treat everyone with empathy regardless of gender but I refuse to be responsible for a system that I had no hand in creating and have no power over.
>When a woman complains about men, she says "Men have done this to me". She may have even specifically named a man, but the men around her instead of jumping to "that was shitty, we should talk to him" jump straight to "but I didn't do it and I'm tired of you talking to me about it".
This is the part that I really struggle to understand. If someone told me about a time they got hurt I would of course console them. But if for example I were talking to a female friend and say "This is what women do. They always disrespect me, lie to me, and cheat on me. Samantha specifically, her lying ass." I wouldn't expect this friend to assume the task of correcting this situation just because she's also a woman. I wouldn't expect her to go talk to Samantha.
If she said "Dude. Not all women are going to lie and cheat you." that would seem ... reasonable to me.
\> And yet any attempt to say, "hey, we don't all think like this" gets met with endless shouts of "oh look another apologist" or "you're trying to nullify women's voices" when all we might be saying is, nah sis, you're probably not talking about the majority here.
I'll give an example that we all saw not too long ago. You remember when Black Lives Matters started and then a bunch of people say 'ALL LIVES MATTER!', and it rightfully so pissed off a bunch of people? Of course we know all lives matter, but they were specifically talking about Black lives at that moment. It's one of those things that really doesn't need to be explained right? Same for when women are talking about shitty things men do, or misogyny. Obviously women aren't talking about every man, we know there are good and bad men and women. So when you inject a comment like 'hey we're not all like this', not only does it come off as kinda taking away from what they're saying, but it makes you seem a bit incapable of being sympathetic towards someone else. That's just my take.
I don't see a question here tbh
I think you need to separate the activity from the gender my friend. You can watch the notebook or have a picnic with your boys, you just probably haven't seen it in your personal life yet to realize that it's ok. Anyways what you said about 'Maybe this is a guy whose limited experience with women constantly puts him out of his comfort zone and he doesn't enjoy it, which he expresses crudely' and how women will jump to the conclusion and say it's the guy, I think that's pretty black and white. From my experiences, women don't have a problem with a guy not liking or wanting to do something, hell most women would bend over backwards in an instance for a guy they truly liked/loved. What's usually the case is that the woman will just wanna see SOME kind of effort without having to beg for it, and after you beg for it for a while and still don't get it, you get frustrated. Then when you on social media it looks like they broke up because he didn't wanna go to the movies w her and shit when in reality she's been begging for a date and a shred of attention for 6 months and all he wanna do is blow her back out when they together.
Even as a single father w a daughter, I don't think we will ever truly understand what it's like to be a woman. It's actually pretty awful.
Might be more helpful to listen to women's experience and not translate it as an indictment of you or all men. The sad truth is that women's experience does indict a large enough number to warrant discussion.
Soz, what were the questions tied to points one and two?
It’s obnoxious. They punish us bc they feel entitled to our bodies… and they hate us for being autonomous, and saying no. What are the options here? Because the bar is in below hell, so whether I’m single or not… I’m still gonna have to suffer because of a man. This shit isn’t sustainable. Y’all need to have a meeting, and work this out
I really don't know how you can't like woman. Yeah I love pussy and am definitely staying single but fuck woman are fun to be around. Yeah im not gonna ne the same way I am with the homies but still.
Preconceived notions and attaching themselves to negative anecdotal experiences, just like with every other group people claim they don’t like en masse
how the fuck has this thread evolved into a toxic counter-male circlejerk.
yeah the points do make sense but half the comments are absolutely generalising all men to be misogynists
Let's see what the experts say
A whole lot of men in here doing the not-all-men routine.
Half the planet doesn't like being generalised together, what a shocker.
Well what are they supposed to do? As if they can do anything about a problem the're supposedly an exception to but are still getting blamed for.
Let's say that you were attacked by a dog as a kid. Nothing too serious, you got a little too close into its comfort zone and it nipped you. Shit happens.
But it's not just you. Most of your friends/family have been attacked by dogs too. Some of them just a little nip. Others worse. Some MUCH worse. You know that there are good dogs. You've seen them. Some of your friends/family have them. They look at you with dumb happy eyes and you almost forget. But always in the back of your mind you remember how quickly that one turned on you.
You can't feel completely comfortable with a dog around. You try telling people that, but they just tell you that you have to get over your fear cause "not all dogs are like that." They won't leave you alone about it.
Eventually you get yourself a dog just so they'll leave you alone about it. You made sure to get the most docile one you can find. Mostly just lays around all day sleeping. Eventually you get comfortable enough to let your guard down around it for the most part. But still, every time it makes a quick, unexpected motion, you're a scared little kid again just waiting for the teeth to bite down.
TL;DR Men are dogs.
This the same line of reasoning racists use to vilify black people.
You misandrists are taking lines from the KKK playbook at this point.
I second this. I just can't grasp how often people will predujize others and will be bigoted as soon as it fits their argument
This sounds to me like you need to talk to a therapist about treating people as individuals as opposed to as stereotypes. You can say this about *literally* any group of people ever. Letting someone get close to you and loving someone is giving them the keys to causing you harm, that's regardless of gender, race, or whether that relationship is gay or even sexual for that matter. People close to you have the ability to hurt you, full stop. Does this mean you should never let anyone close to you again? You certainly *could*, but I have a feeling we would both agree that's not a healthy way to go through life. Without accepting a level of vulnerability in a relationship, that relationship, skin deep as it is, is essentially meaningless. Trust is an important part of any relationship, if you refuse to extend it to anyone for any reason due to their gender, a failed relationship is only natural.
Cool now justify anti-black racism
I struggle with this one a bit. A guy who thinks this same way would pretty much be an incel.
Sooo... Women are bitches?
The man who says "Yes, but, I'm one of the good ones"
Why then, are you offended at this?
Good people are like a well written book; the true nature of a character is demonstrated not dictated.
I was on board until that last one.
Women can be terrible people too, it's not exclusive to men lol
Insane to think people actually think this way. I’ll never truly understand the mind of any bigot. How can you see a human being as anything other than deserving of the same respect and individuality that you yourself enjoy?
I'm scared to read these comments. I know there's probably tons defending the original tweet and feeling some sort of way of what she said. And yall feel a certain way, what she says most likely apply to you.
But this is why I'm very fearful of ever being in a relationship again. My ex gave zero fucks about me as a person. I want to feel valued, important, special, respected, and listened to... And you would think that'll be basic stuff humans do but it seriously isn't. It's fucking sad how it isn't even normalized to treat women as people. I'm a person before I'm female, black, woman, american, queer, etc. And I swear, it hits hard for black women because we're already aren't seen as people by most. And then get defined by a stereotype by men, especially black men, and those specific black men failing to see how they're being sexist and misogynist, like how folks can be racist and bigoted. It hurts to not be seen as a person for being a woman, and then on top of being black, and on top of being a black woman.
I hear you and I feel you, sis. That misogynoir HURTS.
A fuckin triple whammy. And then top it off with those black men who are colorist and internally racist, ugh. I feel like they're the real fucked up ones, because they can't even see how sexist and racist they're being, while facing discrimination for being black at the same time.
Edit* many typos
Way too many men (black and nonblack) treat black women & femmes like shit because of the Strong Black Woman™️ stereotype.
Yea, this whole thread is triggering. I’m definitely glad I’m bisexual and Don’t have to be with a dude if I don’t wanna be. An option, obviously, my straight friends don’t have. The toxicity is on 100 with some men. It’s exhausting.
the guy who made that original comparison post is fucking sub human
also same dude 100% would flip his shit at women with the same sentiment aimed at dudes.
Is it really that rare to have women friends in the US ?
No, but people who are happy with their life experience rarely advertise that fact on reddit.
Even though the last tweet has some issues that should be addressed it doesn’t take away from the overall message and shouldn’t be used to undermine the entire point of the post.
Older men really have trouble grasping this. They just completely reject there is ever a problem so they never have to answer for it. These new upcoming men have a lot more emotional intelligence on average. You love to see it
Her overall point is fair, but she's also definitely making some reaching assumptions on some of the details.
She's pointing out a very real and unreasonable prejudice which exists in many men...but her own tweets express prejudice, as well.
For example, her last tweet literally says there aren't sexist women, only women reacting to mens' sexism...which is objectively a dumb take. Some men are sexist cause women did em dirty (and that doesn't make it okay); some women are sexist cause men did em dirty (and that doesn't make it okay). Some men are sexist cause they're just dumb or mean; some women are sexist cause they're just dumb or mean. (And some - I like to hope *most* - men and women simply aren't sexist.)
So to avoid this i just am gay now
I agree with her but I think it is a evaluation of the symptoms and not the problem. I find that men often see the world as strictly binary, if it values you or if it doesn’t. Both genders do that but men are definitely in the majority and are consistent in it. Many people always use this as proof of toxic misogyny yet hardly anyone looks deeper then that. Why do men look at the world like this? Well how does the word look at men? When we talk about men or judge them what do we look at? We value men strictly on their use to society, how much they make how strong they are, how they look good or not. We as a society don’t care about men outside of a simple binary of usefulness. Men are constantly under the spotlight to provide and protect for their whole lives and that is the only world they know, they don’t understand and don’t care for others because nobody has ever bothered to care for them.
Now if you try to remove that view on men, the view of usefulness you will get backlash from both men and women, because it is useful to have men being useful. Everybody wants a man who will pay the bills, fight on their behalf, be a voice of peace and security, but that very desire is what causes toxic masculinity, that men must be the perfect version of that ideal, in order to be the security of others why show emotion? Who can feel safe when your protector is crying? Why spend time with family or your own kids when you could be in the office working to get more money? The family needs money more then they need you right? Masculinity can’t be some good things and you leave the bad, you have to be open to the idea that there should be no perfect man, and that even the worst version of a man is just as much of a man as the best version. But most would never want to have this conversation.
not trying to invalidate her opinion, but i feel like everything she said could be applied to women just as much if not more. men are rarely respected for just being themselves, only being valuable if they are providing for/caring for a women and/or family
How does one form the conclusion of “Oh, this is just a woman’s response to misogyny?” It’s just a hypothesis treated as fact. If you can’t treat people as individuals, that’s something you need to work on, not everyone else.
As a guy, I'm not even gonna front, this is true af. I don't put an exorbitant amount of effort into building relationships as it is, but I would be lying if I said I don't put in more effort into a relationship with a girl if I think sex is possible.
Most likely it's because I'm a product of the environment i was brought up in. I'm trying to be more aware of my behavior now though
Lord the replies excusing blatant misogyny. But I won’t act surprised, it’s not the first time in this sub. Why the fuck is it so hard for men (and women) to acknowledge that misogyny is a thing. A very real thing that happens every damn day. It already irritates me that every second or third post in this sub is about men vs women, but why is it that a post like this can’t just be respected without clowns having to come in and prove the woman in the tweets right?
Why y’all insecure niggas HAVE TO see a thread about the way women are treated wrong and seen, then turn around and turn it into a “but woe is me too” situation? Men absolutely have difficulties, especially black men, we KNOW this. However this isn’t about y’all relief. If you really have trouble understanding what this woman is saying, then shut the fuck up and read it over. Trying to invalidate women’s experiences only shows you’re part of the problem.
Y’all can’t be deadass.
When guys pull this, they deserve the empty life they have. What kind of asshole just "doesn't like women"? Its some misogynistic incel bullshit. They do not see humanity in women and they want to blame other people because they don't want to put effort into having a personality that doesn't send people scattering for the hills.
That is what kills me, some men be like fuck all bitches but I want some pushy. But a women. Is all kinds of trash for wanting whatever it is she wants. Naww bro, let the best asshole win
She's not wrong per se, but I can't stand her moral posturing. As if women are any more likely to value men as people as opposed to things from which to extract labor and resources. But predictably, the thread is full of self-effacing men mindlessly agreeing with whatever a woman says merely because she's a woman. When men do it, it's horrible and bad. When women do it, it's because we made them.
Women don't care about men either though. 🤷🏾 many don't acknowledge their emotions or see them as anything other than symbols of status or etc. Society not acknowledging the emotions of men leads to toxic masculinity and even increased suicides.
It is really a cycle and until everyone sees each other as human the cycle will continue. This doesn't excuse the rapes and violence that occur.
I agree, though she is being very general by just saying “men” for specific groups of men
Also her last tweet is basically “only men physically abuse, women just complain”
but yeah as a dude I can 100% see this and agree, in even guilty of it myself sometimes tbh
The last statement reeks of double standards, hypocrisy and is sexist. What an idiot. She also makes sweeping statements of what men think, as if she spoke for all of them.
If people are actually defending this nonsense, they only have themselves to blame.
I'm so fucking glad reddit isn't real life.