T O P

Quote of the day

Quote of the day

suchti54

Did you also watch „Call me Ezekiel“?


poclee

Uhhh..... what is that?


suchti54

A youtuber who analyzed the book in his last Video


poclee

Huh, looks interesting, thx!


EmperorRosa

American already has the highest rate of incarceration in the world tho


poclee

99%+ of them has nothing to do with political crimes or thought crime though, and while prison labor is a thing, none of them in today's USA are even close to what had been practiced in USSR's gulags.


EmperorRosa

Very few people were in the Soviet labour prisons for political crimes, and most who were, were convicted of essentially terrorism or treason against the state. It was a country borne out of civil war after all >none of them in today's USA are even close to what had been practiced in USSR's gulags. What makes you say that? It's labour either way


poclee

>Very few people were in the Soviet labour prisons for political crimes Sure, because anti soviet/state isn't a political crime. /s >What makes you say that? It's labour either way Very different--- for one of them won't be blind about your working condition and works you to death. The average mortality rate of gulag is 8.8%, while in USA [the highest point for the past ten years is about 0.34%](https://www.statista.com/statistics/220987/mortality-rate-of-state-prisoners-in-the-us/).


EmperorRosa

>The average mortality rate of gulag is 8.8%, Post WW2, the mortality rate [hovered around 1-2%](http://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1009320), and after the 50s, never rose above 1% The highest mortality rate happened when the Soviet Union was in the middle of a WW2 induced famine. Prior to this, it hovered around 4% By comparison, [mortality in the Tsarist period hovered between 10-30%](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-in-russian-and-french-prisons#toc12) In addition, data on this matter is only recorded from 1930-1956, not because Russia ended the prison system then, but because they simply removed the Gulag (Central administration), so mortality rates from 1956-1991 are entirely missing, which is half a century of data on Soviet prison mortality. I also feel that looking at prison mortality in the 1900s, and comparing it with 2020, is very much in bad faith, considering the medical advances we have made. A more accurate comparison would be to compare with prisons at the time, say, in France and Britain across the 1900s. But data on this isn't as studied as in the USSR, and as such, hasn't been compiled in similar ways.


poclee

> the mortality rate hovered around 1-2%, and after the 50s, never rose above 1% First, still about three times more than USA though. Second, so we should ignore Pre-WW2 data (which averagely around 5%) because.....? >By comparison, mortality in the Tsarist period hovered between 10-30% While I'm still searching for exact data among the paragraph...... correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we comparing today's USA and USSR here?


EmperorRosa

>still about three times more than USA though. Yes, 1940s russian prisons were in fact worse than 2020s American prisons... Most would argue ALL 1940s prisons were worse than 2020s prisons... >so we should ignore Pre-WW2 data (which averagely around 5%) because.....? I explicitly mentioned it? It is however disingenuous to act like WW2 famines causing prison deaths is somehow evidence of the brutality of Soviet prison systems. >correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we comparing today's USA and USSR here? Well the USSR doesn't exist today so, no, we aren't... I'm simply making the point that the ussrs prisons were much better than tsarist prisons. Progress happened, they were an improvement on the status quo.


poclee

>Well the USSR doesn't exist today so, no, we aren't... Since you are the one who mentioned USA's prison, said there is no difference between nowadays USA's prison labor and labor in Gulag.......I think yes, yes we are. [Or should remind you?](https://i.imgur.com/qIFyCqP.jpg)


EmperorRosa

>said there is no difference between nowadays USA's prison labor and labor in Gulag.. In terms of being forced to do work? No, there isn't.


poclee

......and now you're simply shifting the subject, since none of the previous arguments have anything to do with what you said in that sentence.


CrushingonClinton

Most people in the Gulag were there because the KGB/NKVD/OGPU/whateverthefuck needed to fill quotas.


EmperorRosa

Do you have evidence for this claim?


CrushingonClinton

http://serious-science.org/terror-by-quota-1561


mtz9444

And the gold for whataboutism goes to...


EmperorRosa

The entire post is literally about America and the USSR....


mtz9444

You kinda missed the point, now did ya? It’s a fictional book, about a fictional place that is supposed to resemble the USSR, or an allegory for what the communist utopia looks like when compared to the western capitalistic world. Where is the direct comparison with America? Why not take the Germans as an example? Does their incarceration rate rival that of the Archipelago? Does Western only mean American? Actually, have you read the book in discussion? It seems you have not.


EmperorRosa

This quote explicitly brings up America versus the USSR and arrests. America has and has always had more arrests than the USSR.


mtz9444

Oh okay, you haven’t read the book. What a tool.