By - AprilWineTime
I'm not a Metroid fan but it's always nice to see a series that hasn't gotten a new entry in a while stick the landing. I felt similarly about Half-Life: Alyx.
I'm absolutely loving it, as expected (one of my first games was Super Metroid on the SNES) but I just cannot get over the fact that the EMMI enemy is [basically the evil robot from that Val Kilmer movie where they go to Mars.](https://youtu.be/oJGJEepIOt0)
Wow, if EMMI wasn't 100% inspired by that, it would be quite a coincidence. They even share a similar turning in the opposite direction animation.
Gee quite the coincidence lol
Plus they looks so damn similar, the spread hands and the eye...
I'm gonna go ahead and say this was either straight up plagiarized or the design came from the same artist
I wouldn't say plagiarism. A lot of Metroid is inspired by classic sci-fi.
Federation, Metroids, Chozo - Alien
X-Parasite - The Thing
The series’s most recurring boss looks like a cross between a xenomorph and a dragon and is literally named after Ridley Scott. I would say anything resembling an homage is 100% intentional.
Samus' image was based on Sigourney Weaver and Kim Basinger from 9 1/2 Weeks and My Stepmother is an Alien. The name comes from Edson *Aran*tes do Nascimento.
Heck, Sakamoto has flat out said that Alien was a *huge influence* on the first Metroid along with the works of H.R. Giger for the styling.
Everything is literally a homage to something.
Inspired? Sure. But I feel like plagiarism gets thrown around so much that it loses its meaning in a regular conversation like this. This isn't plagiarism.
i was wondering why it looked so familiar!
Metroid 1-3 lifted a LOT from the Alien franchise, so this isn't a new thing for the franchise. Good shout out though!
And Metroid is inspired by Alien.
Hence riddly named after riddly scott
There's a difference between inspiration and copying. This is just a copy.
I'm pretty sure it's just a reference, Metroid games have a lot of sci-fi movies references and winks.
Your difference is smaller than mine then, inspiration seems right to me here, i think there’s an argument for luigi’s mansion and ghostbusters.
"lol sure there's no way they're gonna be that similar- oh my god"
Played about 3 hours today after work. It's a blast, one of my favorite games I've played this year.
Worth buying at full price if you love metroidvanias but have never played metroid?
Edit:Alright guys, my gf had Nintendo online so I'm able to play Super Metroid for "free". I'm about 15 minutes in and I've got the morph ball. Wish me luck.
Not op but so far I’d say yes; this is my first Metroid game after loving hollow knight and the ori games and I’m really enjoying it.
The gameplay feels really fluid and has a very distinct style from the other two, it feels almost cinematic like a thriller movie
> it feels almost cinematic like a thriller movie
The thing I think Dread nailed so well is the cutscene angles when you're in intense moments. Feels very epic Sci-Fi.
The games definitely don't hide their inspiration from *Aliens*.
Adoring Hollow Knight fan here. Never played an actual Metroid.
I'm very keen due to the reviews, but the visual style is putting me off a bit.
Still keen, though. Kinda wish there was a demo to just get a little feel for things.
I was not super into the visuals based on trailers but it looks amazing while playing. Give it a chance
This won't be in any important discount any time soon.
It's a 10 hour single player game, it won't be long until you can buy it second hand for cheaper.
Deep discounts are ussually not the case for Nintendo or even Switch games.
Maybe 10 bucks off.
I realize I didn't address that.
Certainly a better price, i did a quick search for Breath of the Wild and ranges 30-45 bucks.
It's definitely above 10 hours
[How Long To Beat](https://howlongtobeat.com/game?id=94075) has Metroid Dread at main story 7 hours average, including all the extras at 9,5 hours.
People are most likely listing the in-game timer, which doesn't include reloads, deaths, map, pause and so on
Sounds about right; I finished my first run last night (sticking mainly to the 'main path') and clocked about 5:30 on the in-game timer. Add in the time from having to retry several of the bosses a few times and I'm probably just a bit under 'par'.
That's IGT. I have an IGT finish time of 9.5 hours with like 68% completion, but it took me at minimum 14 hours.
Even outside of it being a great Metroidvania, the game's just SO fucking well-paced from an action standpoint. Absolutely no filler or slog moments so far, which is a breath of fresh air with so many recent games being overstuffed to pad unnecessary lengths.
This may get me crucified around here.. but this is what makes Hollow Knight not a masterpiece for me. It's a great game which looks good, plays well, and is very inspired.. but it can absolutely be a slog and is probably about 5 hours too long.
Conversely that's *why* it's so good to me. Half the point of a Metroidvania is getting lost and finding ways to use new abilities. Generic enemy combat is never the main focus of these games, nor should it be.
Dread gives you new abilities then very swiftly funnels you in one-way paths to all the important places you need to use it to progress forward. There's very little downtime exploring and trying to figure things out on your own, and it suffers a bit for it.
> Dread gives you new abilities then very swiftly funnels you in one-way paths to all the important places you need to use it to progress forward. There's very little downtime exploring and trying to figure things out on your own, and it suffers a bit for it.
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving Dread, but I was finding myself irked at being continually pushed forward and disallowed from going backwards to re-explore old areas with my new tools by artificial, impassable barriers. I imagine these were placed to stop players from getting lost (and _eventually_ you are able to return to old areas) but it feels forced and against the exploration-focused gameplay that I love metroidvanias for. The path forward is almost always obvious and frequently the only real option.
yeah, as someone obsessed with MVs, and primarily because i love getting lost, it absolutely misses on that mark in comparison with other games in the genre.
_however_, if you look at it from a “mass public” perspective, i think the level design is absolutely amazing because it gives them just enough “where do i go now?” to be reminiscent of a MV but it’s guided enough to hopefully not turn those people away.
i think this is the number 1 problem with AAA/high budget MVs - you really have to dumb the genre down in order to hit the high sales numbers you need to justify the money spent. i loved dread, but only because it’s a metroid game and i love the story and atmosphere. if this had not been part of an established franchise i think i would have been pretty bummed about paying $60 and not having enough “wtf do i do now” moments.
I never got lost in Hollow Knight as it is one of the more straightforward Metroidvanias. But trekking the map could be a slog. And a big reason is the generic enemies to fight when getting where you need to go.
There is quite a lot of travel time yeah, but I can't knock the enemies personally because Hollow Knight has like 150+ of them which is more than I can say for any other game I've ever played. Plus the combat is sooo much better then your average metroidvania. Honestly controlling the Knight (mainly post-dash) and fighting the enemies is so fun that travelling around never really bothered me much.
>150+ of them
And most of them act pretty similar to at least one other enemy. Functionally you could probably pair that down to like 30 enemies and not fundamentally change the game.
Combat is fine, I still think Dread has way more enjoyable combat overall. Obviously it's vastly different in style, but I prefer it.
Hollow Knight puts a larger emphasis on fighting a bunch of generic enemies, and is one of the worst Metroidvanias for giving me interesting uses for new abilities.
For instance, the Crystal Heart is extremely situational, it's an ability that has almost no practical use beyond a tiny handful of areas it is required to pass.
Then you have things like howling wraiths, which has no additional purpose for exploration and just served as a combat upgrade which was, for me, not very effective in most fights.
Metroid does a good job of making the combat upgrades *also* serve as exploration upgrades.
And vice versa, the exploration upgrades are also combat upgrades for the most part (only exception that comes to mind is the >!sonic pulse!<, everything else is useful both in and out of combat). Extremely tight design. Mercury Steam is the dev and they clearly studied Nintendo's tradition of airtight designs where everything has one or even more purposes and locks together in fun and surprising ways.
Honestly it's probably more than 5 hours too long. They just don't give you any tools to travel particularly quickly until a long time into the game, and even then it's very situational.
Just traveling from one place to another can take forever, and fast travel is pretty limited for the size of the map.
I get some people like slow games but there's a fine line between slow and moody and wasting the player's time.
Yea I can see that for sure.
No you're 100% right. Honestly, the Hollow Knight "masterpiece" praise really only happened in the past year that I've noticed. Before it was a must play game for most people, but most people also said the beginning few hours were a slog.
Hollow Knight is a great game, but it has a lot more RPG elements in it than Metroid does.
Definitely not just in the last year, it's been going for a few years at least. It doesn't have that many RPG elements really, at least not in the traditional sense. There's no stats/levelling like in the Vania side of Metroidvania. There's no grinding either.
Yeah, it’s worth it. Nintendo rarely discounts their games, and if they do it’s for ten bucks. If you’re interested, just go for it. Great game so far.
To me it 100% is. I can understand if people are hung up on the fact it's a shorter game. Roughly 10ish hours. Scratch that Kinky_muffin finished it in 7.5 hours.
I 100% the game, and it took me 9:30 on the in game timer. That said, calculating my time actually playing, it took me about 14 hours to beat.
I finished it in 7:30 with half an hour of getting lost so 10 is very generous.
i finished it with 60% and 11h… are you guys speed running??
As a general rule, don't trust play length from people a day after a game launches. Think about it, who do you know that finishes games that quick? These people clearly have a free schedules and are probably diehard fans that *want* to see the end as soon as possible.
I always feel crazy coming on here and seeing people talk about how fast they beat a game like a day after it comes out. Like do all you guys get early copies or do you actually play for like ten straight hours the moment a game releases??
> or do you actually play for like ten straight hours the moment a game comes releases??
Probably this one. Remember we're on a gaming forum on a site that skews towards college-aged people.
I can't tell if people are going by in game clock or actual hrs. I played 3 hrs last night and in-game clock said 2
Deaths reset your clock and map time doesn’t count.
yeah i guess most go after ingame… in may case i often had to retry bosses so i estimate i took about 15h to finish it
Afaik, the in game timer doesn't count the time between saving/checkpointing and game over. Which means it's a substantial undercount of the actual time.
Yeah there's definitely moments the timer isn't taking into account. I finished it in one sitting, so I know the time I started and when I stopped, and after coming back to 100% the same save file today, my in-game timer is about 4 hours short of what it really took me.
Ok I'll edit my comment
I'd personally recommend picking up Super Metroid first if you have any Nintendo console. It's on pretty much all of them in one way or another. The game still holds up extremely well in my opinion and would probably serve as great introduction to this game. Then you'd also be able to appreciate the improvements to this one.
Genre? Super Metroid remains a solid contender for the greatest game ever made. It gets recommended as a must play over 25 years after its initial release. How many games retain relevance like that even 5 years after release.
Yeah, there are few games I can think of from 20 years ago that still command that kind of relevance. Halo is the only 2001 game that comes to mind here. MGS2 as well I guess, but more for its story than for its gameplay (to be clear the gameplay is great but being a flawless stealth game isn't what people remember about MGS2, they remember "I need scissors! 61!").
Is super metroid available on switch?
Yes, on their SNES collection with NSO
Super Metroid is still great but since there are a lot of people who say even now that it is the best in the series, I just want to assure you that Dread feels 1000x better to play.
While this is accurate, I think people should play Super not just to get a great Metroid experience, but because it’s a foundational text in the literature of video games and it 100% holds up to this day. People refer to the “Citizen Kane of video games” when talking about big new dramatic and cinematic games, but Super Metroid might be the real “Citizen Kane of video games.”
It releases in 1994, at a moment where technology has taken enough of a leap forward that modern game design is truly possible. It uses that technological moment to set the stage for tons of the design tropes that we take for granted today. In many ways, if you’ve played a lot of contemporary video games, you’ve already played Super Metroid, because so many of them are building on what it achieved. And yet to play Super Metroid is to play one of the most tightly constructed, well-paced, elegant implementations of those ideas that you will ever find. It’s the entire language of video games all wrapped up in one video game.
It’s not like I feel strongly about Super Metroid or anything 😅
It also has an amazing speed running scene. Love it
Ahh I see you are also a man of culture. I'm 27 years removed from the release of Super, and I'm still finding things to appreciate about it (and race it through a randomizer maybe once or twice a month).
The extremely technical movement, the gorgeous sprite work, the _platforming_, the visual storytelling, the flawless score with lots of odd time signatures, the iconic map layout... I could go on... the game is a master of craft, top to bottom.
I really wish there were more interviews with the developers, I'd really like to get in their head. Was damage boosting always intended? What about the mockball trick? What was the purpose for allowing the player to turn off gear? Would they have fixed the 'glitches' if they had had the ability to do so, or is the game better off having them?
You know Super Metroid is special when it's been 27 years and developers to this day are still trying to emulate its greatness and take inspiration from it any way they can.
I’ll make sure to play it after I’ve finished Dread! You’ve sold me haha
I play it every couple of years, and it always surprises me how good it looks. The controls are probably the only real limitation, and it's marginal.
Not the person you're replying to, but I wish to subscribe to your Super Metroid newsletter.
Not really disagreeing with you, but I wanna add to this for anybody unfamiliar with Metroid gameplay who are getting recommended Super over other entries. The engine is really clunky for what is effectively a platformer, and is easily the most alienating entry of the "modern" Metroid games. Personally I called it quits after a few hours because the core gameplay just wasn't fun for me. For context, I played Fusion, then Zero Mission, and loved both. Thought I'd finish off my Metroid homework with the clear fan favorite, only to be hugely let down.
It depends where your issue with Super lies, but there's a Rom Hack called Redux that fixed my issue with the controls, it's ports some quality of life stuff that was created in Fusion and Zero Mission without changing the core game(although you can enable Fusion physics on it), I do recommend giving it a shot.
Plugging Redux here as well. Makes Super Metroid amazing to play. Also adds widescreen if you follow the instructions on how to do so, which is great.
Ok but hear me out, Super Metroid remake in the Dread engine.
The engine has a high skill ceiling. That's not for everyone. Mastering it is essential for getting a great speedrun time (and they did want you to speedrun this game -- the clear time and rewards for better times are obvious indicators of that). The complexity in optimizing Samus's movement in Super makes it top notch (and the reason its speedrunning scene is still extremely active to this day).
In fact, a good speedrunner will make Super's physics look fluid and graceful. It's super impressive what masterful execution enables in the game, moreso than Fusion or Zero Mission I think.: https://youtu.be/vBdHFz9gTtM?t=145
Obviously, speedrunning isn't everything. I get that the control scheme, when viewed through a modern lens, is arcane. Controls were weird in the 16-bit era... standards weren't fully established yet. Given the constraints of the SNES controller, the level of precise control they accomplished is still remarkable... even if it means some awkward controller grips to fully execute. This is a game that takes some work to get the controls down. Fusion and Zero by-and-large remove the barrier to good execution, which makes them much more accessible.
Having a high skill ceiling and a low skill floor are not mutually exclusive though. Many of my favorite games are fun from the get-go, but become even more fun with working towards that skill cap. I just personally don't find inherent enjoyment from Samus' movement in Super, and don't find any desire to push through it just because it's a good speed game.
Totally fine! I grew up with Super, so I'm going to be incredibly biased in saying I think Samus's movement in Super is just fine, but I definitely see complaints all the time from new players hopping in and mentioning they perceive floatiness or clunkiness.
Metroid Dread has gone in a direction that I think is a pretty good compromise zone -- it feels great to the average player, and a skilled player can leverage the engine to still do some impressive stuff.
I just finished Dread. If Super Metroid is a 10/10, Dread is a 9.8. It's so amazing, but the thing about it that gets me is the music. It's just... not great. Give it a soundtrack on par with Super, and I'll easily call it the best in the franchise, bar none.
Besides the music, what else is it that you think is better about super Metroid?
For me, Metroid dread has far better combat, controls, more interesting enemies and bosses, a far more engaging story, and the world design does an amazing job of suggesting the right direction without feeling too handholdy and still leaving room for exploration and discovering secrets. The backtracking required to move forward feels more seemless than just about any other Metroidvania I've played.
I guess I'm just saying that there's a ton of stuff that dread does better than super that seems to carry more weight than the soundtrack yes?
There's a lot of nostalgia goggling with regards to Super Metroid. I think there are folks who are going to skip Dread because people have been saying, "it completely holds up," when it has a bunch of rough edges by modern standards.
The closes you’ll get to a discount is going to a physical Walmart where they sell the game at $49.99.
As someone that is loving Dread and the Metroid series, honestly probably not. I’d say if you’re comfortable paying $60 for one of the greatest metroidvanias recently albeit a very short one yes, but if you like to maximize your value with games I’d say try out the older Metroids first and see if it’s a series you’d like to continue with.
or just buy it either way so I can get another one before I'm in my 40's.
It does very little to move the genre forward and the pacing can be a bit wonky (some areas feel like a boss rush, sometimes you're given major upgrades for no reason, sometimes youll spend long stretches without getting any power ups. EMMI sections can be weird about this too). Its supremely polished among the best of the genre with very fluid controls barring a few legacy mechanics (wall jumping feels better than previous metroid games but not amazing, same with the double jumping).
I dont think I really rushed but I was eager to see all I could and try stuff out, and all in all I am at like 90% completion (just some really tricky platforming sections for a few scattered health/ammo ups remaining) in about 12 hours of gameplay, and I dont see myself jumping back in immediately.
Personally- I dont regret buying it, but I wouldn't have if I was in any way strapped for cash. I think there are more fully featured full price games out there. I think Dread is very good, I just think its lacking a bit for the cost involved
I’d also say yes, on account of the fact that the map feels very big. Not quite hollow knight size, but definitely has a lot of twists and turns and secrets that make it feel really big too.
Honestly, the only reason it seems smaller than Hollow Knight is because Samus moves so friggen' fast. Seriously, the map in Dread is huge.
It's also key to consider that Dreads map is WAY more dense than HK, and Samus also moves incredibly fast compared to traversal in HK, and has a lot of traversal options that make her move even faster than previous entries.
HK probably has it beat for sheer size, but part of that is because huge swaths of map don't have much in them, and it takes you twice as long to traverse them.
In terms of unique bosses/enemies HK has way more. It's not all just empty space.
Plenty of those unique bosses/enemies are extremely similar to each other.
It's a lot of empty space.
Unique to what? Looks? Maybe then sure, but most of the enemies in HK functioned very similarly to a good amount of the others.
Worth paying the extra cost for the special edition too. The game is great.
Yes. It's smooth as fuck
I'm going to go with no, as someone that's not a hardcore fan of Metroid I don't think the game did much for me and I'm someone that prefers the 2D Metroids over the Prime games, I can see the hardcore fans getting much more of a kick from this than someone new to the series
I’d say no, not worth the price. That being said I also don’t think waiting will get you a sale, first party Nintendo games don’t really drop in price.
So for me I was happy with the purchase. On any other system I’d wait for 30$, but knowing Nintendo there was no point in waiting.
There's a ton of unique content, the visuals are honestly gorgeous, and the story is pretty unobtrusive and intriguing.
The game is vastly better than HK honestly.
47 bosses to 10. 10 bosses is not "tonnes of content" for a $60 metroidvania.
I like the game but I’m honestly shocked people find the art style beautiful
It looks like an early 3D game upscaled in HD
It's a bit linear, if that's not your thing at full price.
I'd give that one some time honestly. People have found some pretty creative skips so far and its only been out for a day.
Yeah, the game just came out so a lot of the potential sequence breaks won't be discovered for a while. People need to keep in mind that games like Super Metroid have been torn apart and analyzed for decades when comparing it to Dread. Those breaks will be found in time I'm sure.
I'm also just a little over three hours into the game. Loving the look and the feel of the game. No issues there. But boy howdy am I taking issue with ADAM at the moment, I'm really hoping that changes soon.
His dialogue is oddly poorly translated (referring to the EMMI as an "existential threat"). Otherwise, the game is a fucking gem
EMMI is an existential threat. It's a threat to Samus's existence, that's the definition of an existential threat (even if we colloquially use it today to refer to Humanity's existence)
Yeah I was gonna say, what do people think existential is?
Saying "existential threat" to describe something that will absolutely kill you is exactly what I'd expect a computer to say.
It goes beyond that.
ADAM telling me to feel helpless and that I should be filled with existential dread is just sitting with me wrong. At this point I'm already slightly miffed that E.M.M.I. is a borderline cartoonish version of the SA-X from Fusion with none of the build up or tension that Fusion spent the first half of the game building up too. Now I have a computer telling me that I should fear it and run from it because of how helpless I am.
One of the strongest story elements from previous mainline entries was their atmosphere. We as players felt that sense of isolation and dread in Super and Fusion. Ironically in the entry that name drops that exact emotion the series is most known for; we're jettisoning that same emotion right out the airlock. Pausing every 30 minutes to "report" what we've seen, and then being told how to feel breaks up any sort of tension or atmosphere.
I will say this though. There have been some nice little things going on in the background. Corpius can be seen several times cloaking and running on ahead of you setting up for an ambush that leads to the first boss fight. Certain noises in Dairon are letting me know that there is a hulking beast out there somewhere trying to get at Samus. The game needs more of these elements and less EMMI and ADAM in my opinion.
The gameplay is fine, the look of the game is fine, Samus' movements are fantastic. My only problem with the game is the atmosphere and storytelling. I'm really hoping that changes soon, because right now it feels more like I'm playing a Castlevania game, than a Metroid game.
> ADAM telling me to feel helpless and that I should be filled with existential dread is just sitting with me wrong.
>!There is an explanation for this in the game later!<
Even with that explanation, I never felt half the way I did with the SA-X. They OHKO from EMMI felt way cheaper than the SA-X just blowing your shit up and took a lot of tension out. In fusion sometimes you would barely escape and then be low on health for a while. I never felt in danger in dread because I'd just play the EMMI sections until I got it right.
The SA-X was at its peak during the first cutscene and degrades in atmosphere from there especially when you have to start fighting it head on.
Also the ADAM thing is for story reasons…
The SA-X was an incredible adversary. First shown to the player in a cutscene, then the player encounters them several more times while remaining out of view and with the goal to just stay hidden, then there was that part where you're dropped right in front of its view and have to flee. No cheap-as-fuck one hit deaths, evading it took skill, you had weaponry that could temporarily impede it. Then your arsenal is finally strong enough to face it in direct combat.
Nothing about the E.M.M.I by comparison has been executed well. If one catches up to Samus, you're treated to an 8 second cutscene where you watch her get impaled in the sternum with a DNA extraction blade and killed instantly. Yes, you can technically parry this attack and briefly stun the E.M.M.I but that requires frame perfect precision. I've seen speedrunning strats require less precise execution than parrying an E.M.M.I's attack.
The zones where they reside feel designed to be deliberately cheap, and it would take me a long time to explain why each zone is badly designed. But I've had plenty of times where I've hit a dead end with an E.M.M.I following me and I've just switched the game off, losing about 5 to 15 mins of progress from where I last saved. I know the deaths aren't punishing and you can restart immediately before the E.M.M.I Zone but they're so fucking brutal, repetitive and cheap that I would rather lose that progress and take a break from the game than continue to subject myself to that trial & error.
Something that doesn't make sense about Dread's story... >!When Quiet Robe's corpse is infected by the X Parasite, why the fuck does he then reactivate the E.M.M.I? Isn't having one extract Samus's Metroid DNA so that Raven Beak can reproduce the Metroids as bioweapons counter-productive to the X Parasite's survival, since the Metroids are a natural predator to the X?!<
I'm about 60(?) percent of the way through Dread, as in I still have three more E.M.M.I to kill, and it pains me to say this because I have been hyped for this game since its reveal, but Dread is my least-favourite Metroid game so far. The E.M.M.I ruin it so much.
Is it a bad thing the E.M.M.I requires precise play to parry? The SA-X wasn't that great of an adversary.. I'm finding the E.M.M.I is on par with the SA-X but I also don't have nostalgia for Fusion.
I feel like people have a rose tinted view of the SA-X.
Most SA-X encounters had you hide from it for a few seconds before it went away.
So far the Emmis have been more fun for me since you actually have to juke around them.
I think people are confusing narrative function and gameplay mechanics. From a gameplay perspective, sure the E.M.M.I. is better than the SA-X because you can actually interact with it. The SA-X was much better about ratcheting that tension up. You've seen what it can do the environment and other creatures in the lab, you know that it also empowered by the X parasite. You know that it can fuck you up, so you hide. We don't face SA-X until we've grown in power enough to take it down, because otherwise it spells disaster, not just for us, but for the entire galaxy.
E.M.M.I so far, and I've defeated four of them, haven't had any narrative function other than to make certain sections of each area tedious. My first thought when I saw one was that they were just trying to copy what the SA-X was, with absolutely none of the build up that SA-X had. Now this might all change later as I progress the story, but I don't feel anything for E.M.M.I. the way I did for SA-X or even Dark Samus in Prime 2.
Exactly this. This is why a lot of stealth based horror game enemies are terrible. Once you get caught enough times they're just not menacing anymore but an annoyance. Avoiding SA-X is quite easy and it's more about the tense atmosphere when she shows up. The music turning dark, the loud footsteps, the menacing face you got when she busted the elevator. This all sets up SA-X to be feared, but EMMI just bumps into you while you're trying to get to the next door and whoopsie you died, go back to the previous spot without EMMI.
I had nostalgia for Fusion and replayed it before Dread.
The SA X had much better presentation and was definitely more of a horror element, but it didn't do much with gameplay.
Emmis are gameplay first all the way around. I loved figuring out the emmi encounters. If you're problem with Emmis is that you're dead if they catch you, you're missing the point. Not getting caught is the entire thing. The parry mechanic is just a bonus to add some excitement when you pull it off.
Emmis are essentially tense puzzles. Yeah, not as scary as the SA X, but fusion only pulled that off by being incredibly linear. Breadcrumbs could be planted that way.
I also think people overestimate just how scary SA-X was because they played the game when they were younger.
It's undoubtedly scary, and more tense than EMMI, but it's not the absolute terror that some people make it out to be.
> Nothing about the E.M.M.I by comparison has been executed well. If one catches up to Samus, you're treated to an 8 second cutscene where you watch her get impaled in the sternum with a DNA extraction blade and killed instantly. Yes, you can technically parry this attack and briefly stun the E.M.M.I but that requires frame perfect precision. I've seen speedrunning strats require less precise execution than parrying an E.M.M.I's attack.
I mean the fact that parrying it is nearly impossible to do is kind of the point. If you could parry them easily, they would lose all sense of tension. At the same time, the fact that you can makes the moment it catches you much more intense instead of just feeling like "Oh well, it got me, guess I'll die". I don't know why that would make them badly designed unless you think instant death enemies are always badly designed.
I never felt dread coming from SAX because it all felt like heavily scripted story sequences to me. Interesting from a story perspective but not as emotionally impactful as a dynamic, consistent threat.
> The zones where they reside feel designed to be deliberately cheap, and it would take me a long time to explain why each zone is badly designed. But I've had plenty of times where I've hit a dead end with an E.M.M.I following me and I've just switched the game off, losing about 5 to 15 mins of progress from where I last saved. I know the deaths aren't punishing and you can restart immediately before the E.M.M.I Zone but they're so fucking brutal, repetitive and cheap that I would rather lose that progress and take a break from the game than continue to subject myself to that trial & error.
I don't even get this comment at all. Isn't the phantom cloak designed for situations where you hit a dead end? If you get stuck, why don't you just get caught by the EMMI instead of restarting the entire game? And how often can you lose 5-15 minutes of progress inside an EMMI zone? This honestly feels like a problem you are creating for yourself.
Being in an EMMI zone for over 3 minutes at a time is a stretch unless you're truly terrible at finding the path to take. 15 fucking minutes seems nigh on impossible to do on accident.
It legitimately sounds like this person hasn't played the game.
To me, it sounds like they're turning the game off when cornered in an EMMI section, which may force them to start over from the last save point instead of at the last EMMI door. Which, if true, seems like such a weird way to make the game less fun for yourself.
That must be it, and if so, fucking why?
This is pure, unadulterated nostalgia goggles. SA-X barely even got any screen time. The EMMI take a concept that SA-X touched on and expand it into an actual impactful gameplay element.
The zones are designed extremely well, they give you multiple routes for hiding, dodging, or just outright running, which pair well with Samus' movement abilities. If you keep getting caught by EMMI I think you're just not very good at the game.
I think people that haven't played Fusion in a while forget that there are only like 4 SA-X encounters and none of them are very long, and part of their impact is probably that you were 15 years younger than you are now.
Like yeah, SA-X was an awesome narrative tool, but as far as gameplay goes they didn't do a ton until you fought them head on.
> The zones where they reside feel designed to be deliberately cheap
All I've seen so far include numerous, blatantly obvious loops ad slide gaps. The opposite of cheap.
> but that requires frame perfect precision. I've seen speedrunning strats require less precise execution than parrying an E.M.M.I's attack.
This is a good thing.
I thought people's issue would be that the EMMI aren't deadly enough if anything, but cheap? They literally give you every chance possible to dodge the EMMI and keep giving you new abilities to enhance your escape potential.
Personally I think the EMMI find a great balance of keeping things tense without being frustratingly hard.
I'm going to argue that the emmis are great. Just wrapped up the game about 30 minutes ago, and the Emmis feel like a genuine puzzle as you move on.
As far as ADAM goes, I won't argue there. He's a bit of an ass. It's like he doesn't really know Samus well at all. Like he's trying too hard to scare Samus or something. But he talks less and less as the game goes on.
You should probably finish the game first...you'll see
I am pretty sure the Adam dialogue is optional, no? At least I remember that being said at one point. Also if we’re comparing to Fusion here, Adam talked MUCH more often, with more text boxes.
I have not found a way of skipping ADAM's dialogue in Dread. Once you enter a room with an ADAM computer the doors lock until you speak with it. And it's rooms typically bridge one area to another so you have to go through them.
My problem with ADAM isn't that it exists. My problem is, it first tells me how to feel about what I think is a pretty cheap replication of the SA-X from Fusion, and then every subsequent interaction with ADAM is just a recap of the last 30 minutes or so of gameplay, and then a reminder that EMMI is spooky. I've now beaten four EMMI and I'm still being told by ADAM that I don't stand a chance against them, and that it's best I run and hide.
ADAM's function in Fusion, as far as I can recall, is to inform the player what is going on in other areas of the lab. The X parasite is everywhere, and is increasingly infecting larger and more dangerous creatures. Samus is fighting a losing battle trying to restore containment systems faster than the X can infect new organisms. ADAM is our window into those systems and what the X is doing. In Fusion ADAM is driving the narrative forward, not recapping events to the player.
Game is bloody good. Controls well and I love how fast Samus moves. Level design does a really good job of subtly guiding me where to go. Was worried I wouldn't enjoy it since I bounced off the older 2D metroids and thinking about the Prime games gives me a headache but I really, really like it.
I agree about the older 2D games but I absolutely adore the prime series! Is there a particular reason you get a headache thinking about them or were they just not your style?
I think I was too young to understand them. I had Prime Hunters on the DS which I remember enjoying a LOT but a lot of that comes down to the free local multiplayer I could run at school. I don't remember being able to get too far into the story really. I had Prime 3 on Wii and didn't get too far with that either from what I remember.
The big thing I remember about both is just getting stuck and not knowing what to do. For some reason whenever I get stuck in games I start heating up and my head starts hurting. Something is wrong with me lmao.
Maybe I'd be better with it now. I was interested in playing Prime 4 and if they ever put the trilogy on switch I'd probably pick it up but I have a feeling that it's just not really my thing.
For me, it's just playing FPS games on a GC was not fun.
PrimeHack fixes this problem completely by letting you play it with mouse and keyboard. Only flaw is that Prime 3's gimmicky motion controls for some puzzles are a bit fucky.
I loved it on the GC but I'll second primehack, was a very different experience for prime1. Though I'm near the end and forgot to beat it, I should go back and also give 2 a whirl.
I can definitely respect that, the control scheme was pretty wacky.
Beat it (100%) in two sittings. It's been my best experience with Metroid since I first played Metroid Prime. It's probably my favorite 2D one now, though I'll wait a bit longer for the recency bias to go away. Gameplay is tight, bosses are well-designed, map is very well balanced between open for exploration and helping you figure out the next objective. I'm just mad they haven't made a few more new games in the last 20 years.
I think it's too linear. But then again it's a follow up to Fusion, lol.
It's not nearly as linear as Fusion. You can skip big chunks of the world, too. Mainly just for upgrades, but I'm sure there's room in there for some skips.
Yeah but if you aren't using these obscure skips and are a casual player first time it's more linear than Fusion. Lots of blocked off areas you can't go back to through almost entire game up until th eend
When is the last time you played fusion? Fusion literally locks you into a section of the game at a time. It's split into 6 distinct chunks. And there's not a lot of room to sequence break at all. Honestly, playing through it felt more like a Zelda game than something closer to Super.
Metroid Dread has Easter eggs designed for people who sequence break. If you get the morph ball bombs before the returning boss, you actually can get a faster kill. To dismiss the ability to sequence break a day into launch is silly. Speedrunners will find shit that will blow your mind. As far as blocked off areas, I can only name a few for narrative reasons? Like, most blocked off areas can be backtracked to the long way around in Dread.
Hopefully this is successful and encourages them to port Samus Returns. I own it on 3ds but would love a 60fps version I can play with the pro controller on the TV
Finally got a solid 90min in and this game is pinnacle for the genre. Truly made me remember why it's called metroidvania. Already can't wait to play through it several more times.
no metroidvania has touched hollow knight yet, this included
Hollow Knight isn't even as good as Super Metroid... I like the game a lot but everyone acts like it is the definitive best of its genre and it's just not. I just beat Dread a few hours ago and I can definitely say I liked it more than Hollow Knight.
I love Super Metroid and consider it a 10/10 game. But I still think Hollow Knight is better when you don't take 'how good is it for its time?' into account. Way better combat, way better boss fights, way more enemies, way more content, exceptional worldbuilding and atmosphere (I wont say better, but I do prefer Hallownest to Zebes personally), much more complex build variety, more challenging, great music, much more responsive controls, more varied locations, better graphics - need I go on? Super Metroid is a tighter game, and I still wouldn't change a thing about it, but Hollow Knight is just a much deeper and more developed game so its hard for me to say Super is better.
Hollow Knight is just a weak Metroidvania. Steadily gaining power is key to the genre but in HK you can go hours without getting a meaningful power up.
HK is better as a 2D soulslike than it is as a Metroidvania. It lacks interesting puzzles, good progression, and fun traversal imo.
Yeah, it's def more a vania than a metroid. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it always baffles me that people group those two together when there's really only surface level similarities.
I just recently played through Circle of the Moon and Super Metroid, and yeah honestly the games are *vastly* different in style. I've always been more on the Metroid side so HK probably doesn't feel quite right based on that, but I also really enjoyed Circle of the Moon so who knows.
Circle is also way more stripped back and streamlined so there's that, and I have always liked Castlevania's combat from 1, 4, and Rondo.
Also Circle is short enough that you are consistently getting upgrades that alter exploration.
There's... very few games out there that are as good as Super Metroid.
How long did it take you to beat?
About 13 hours according to the in game timer. It doesn't include cutscenes, map screens, or the time lost when dieng and being sent back to the last checkpoint. I'm going to start my second playthrough now and focus on finding sequence breaks and Speedrun routes (because Metroid is a speedrunning game series).
Oh I didn't say that. Hollow Knight pretty much broke this genre. I've got three frames in my home from that game and it's my next tattoo. But it's been so damn long since an amazing Metroid game that is hard to recall just why this genre is what it is. With that said,
These games are so vastly different that I really wouldn't compare the two. The movement in Dread makes Hollow Knight seen like molasses. Right out of the gate with zero upgrades. Clearly this game had Speedruns in mind from day 1.
I’ve found both this and Ori Wisps to be better experiences than Hollow Knight. I liked Hollow Knight for the most part but am dumbfounded by the rhetoric that it is the pinnacle of metroidvanias.
Did you like Ori and the Blind Forest? I want to love those games, but I feel that Ori 1 has too much of an emphasis on platforming instead of exploring. Is Will of the Wisps different in that regard?
That’s a good question. I specifically mentioned Wisps because, to me, Blind Forest isn’t at that level.
I bounced off Blind Forest the first time, but ended up enjoying it on a replay. I didn’t necessarily love it though.
I LOVE Wisps. Funnily enough, some of the things I like most about Wisps is clearly influenced from Hollow Knight. Boss battles and a greater emphasis on combat, which is pretty fleshed out and versatile in builds.
The movement in Wisps is just so fluid. But if you aren’t massive on platforming that might not appeal to you as much.
I’ve bought both of the games, so I think after finishing Dread, im going to really put my nose to the grindstone and give them another chance.
One of the things I found immersive about Hollow Knight was the sound design, playing in a dark room with headphones. I might have to give the Ori games that same experience
The exploration aspect of Hollow Knight is excellent, but the bosses really tarnish the game for me. Many demand such perfect execution they end up feeling "cheap". Of the bosses I've fought so far in Dread, none of them have that problem because they telegraph their patterns much better and don't require such absolute perfection.
if you ignore the godmaster dlc I only recall 2-3 bosses that require more or less perfect execution and pretty much all of them are optional.
But what you are describing as a problem I see as something positive. Boss fights are highlights and a big part of what makes Hollow Knight so good.
I completely agree. Grew up on Metroids and GBA Castlevanias and I think HK is probably my favorite metroidvania of all time.
The bosses are certainly hard, but I only had two (Traitor Lord and to a lesser extent the Watcher Knights) bosses that I felt crossed the line into unfair. But even then I was able to tell what I was doing wrong and didn’t really feel like the game was screwing me.
Colosseum of Fools, on the other hand…that gets to “fuck you” levels of hard
The only really hard bosses are either optional or only required for specific endings.
Honestly, hollow knight is fine, but it's not as perfect as everyone makes it out to be. The first 3 hours are a bit of a slog.
3 hours out of a 50+ hour game being a slog is not a huge problem. Most long games have fairly slow beginnings.
Hollow Knight is vastly overrated. It's a Metroidvania where your power levels stagnate regularly as you hit big gaps in power ups, one which makes exploration and traversal slow and tedious, and which often rewards exploration with cash and lore instead of any meaningful, permanent upgrades.
I can understand enjoying it as a kind of 2D souls game, and I got some enjoyment out of it for that, but as a Metroidvania it gets beaten out by nearly every 2D metroid game, the Ori games, and La Mulana 1/2 imo.
Did we play the same Ori? The highly linear game that shared many of Hollow Knights mechanics (Will of the Wisps mainly) (charms, upgrades etc.) is more of a metroidvania? Why?
Mostly because you can move quickly from the get go. I'm a big fan of the genre, Wisps being the GOAT on my opinion, and I've tried really hard to like HK but it just feels extremely slow and clunky. Maybe if I get past the 1st 3 hours as someone said, but man 3 hours to start enjoying a game is kinda a lot
3 hours to start enjoying a game isn't much when that game is easily 50 hours long (much more if you want it to be). As soon as you get some movement upgrades it doesn't feel slow. Though I admit I had the same issue as you, I played a couple of hours of the game twice and thought it was boring as shit. Went back a third time and persevered and I'm so glad I did as now it's one of my favourite games of all time. If you are on PC there might be some mods to speed things along.
I do think that Will of the Wisps took a lot from Hollow Knight, so I'd be surprised if you didn't enjoy it after you've got through the beginning.
How long the game is is irrelevant, if I get no enjoyment for 2hrs, then I'm quitting. You don't put your shittiest content at the start of your game
I mean fair enough, you do you, but there are quite a few amazing games with slow beginnings.
There's a difference between a slow start and a slog, and for me personally, HK was a slog
Better and more interesting traversal and Ori doesn't waste your time constantly.
I found some of the escape bosses to waste my time as much as anything in HK.
Not possible, simply walking across a few sections of map in HK takes longer than nearly any objective in Ori. Unless you keep dying in Ori but that's a different case.
I thought we were talking about Ori? Also no wonder you are wasting time if you are walking, you have fast travel and movement upgrades for a reason.
Super Metroid sits high atop the genre of metroidvania my dude. I doubt it will ever be topped
Edit: Haters can’t handle the truth
Hollow Knight was terrible. I hated everything about it.
Large empty map. Tedious battles. Floaty combat. Dull, boring world.
Metroid Dread blows it out of the water.
Floaty combat lol.
There are legit reasons one might not enjoy hollow knight. The things you've mentioned are not them. Hollow knight does not have an empty map at all, it's filled with NPCs and unique encounters, far moreso than any Metroid game. The battles are really fast paced and rarely last more than a few minutes, I don't know how you could possibly consider them tedious. I wouldn't call the combat floaty, although I can understand not liking the feel of it. And the world is absolutely bursting with fascinating lore and backstory. If you think it's dull, you just aren't paying attention. You're entitled to your opinion about the game, but this comment is objectively incorrect.
Nah, hollow knight was mediocre
It's a true Metroid game in every meaning of the word. My absolute favorite part?
Once the game starts up and the beginnings of the story are told, etc.. the game just says "aight, you're good. get goin". No hand holding bullshit.
It's wonderful. When it was mentioned that it was Mercury Steam that was making an official Metroid game, I was a bit concerned. Not that they are a terrible dev, but not many of their games are really of significant polish and cleanliness, etc.
Well, I was wrong to have been concerned. They straight up nailed it.
Most of the game I'm loving. But I can't lie, the EMMI don't add any tension or "dread" to my gameplay. Often they're just annoying at best or frustrating at worst. They just don't feel like they bring anything enjoyable to the game for me.
Personally. I loved the EMMI segments, as they are a major change of pace and emphasize the smooth movement of the game. They are like a puzzle to solve using the movement alone.
Yeah, the EMMIs are nice to have a way to flex your raw platforming muscles in between combat sections. I very much appreciated it as a way to change the pace and shift gears for a little while.
I think they should have allowed the EMMI to roam more, but give you more visibility into where it is.
I felt the same way, but at least the restarts are quick and I think they get significantly better (or at least shorter) as the game progresses. It is a metroid game after all, gotta put all the "powerless" sections up front so you can slowly become an unstoppable god by the end.
I'm loving it more and more as I go (think I'm almost at the end). I wish there was a way to turn the music up (and that it was a little "groovier") but the new mechanics, added difficulty and awesome bossfights (best in the series) are all great. The character animations and art are so fun and you just feel like a badass techno-acrobat more and more as the game progrresses.
I finished it and I can say that I never had fun with the EMMIs. They really never accomplished anything that I couldn't have gotten out of just exploration based gameplay. A few of the bosses hit way too hard at times expecting near perfect runs. Most only took me a couple tries but I could honestly see this game being way too hard for a lot of people.
I liked the later emmi sections where they became chase sequences, but they still weren't as good as the exploration parts for me either (but exploration and/or puzzles are generally my favorite activity in games, so I'm biased). That said, I just came off Echoes of the Eye which I was super hyped for but let down because of shitty stealth-horror segments, so maybe Dread's stealth-horror-action segments just feel better by comparison (stealth is better when you can see your surroundings, who knew?).
I thought the bosses were around the same difficulty as something like Hollow Knight or Death's Door. Generally I'd argue that bosses that are difficult until you master their pattern, at which point you can perform their fight near flawlessly (I always think of Sekiro as the peak of this particular boss style) are a good thing. I'm having a blast with the boss fights.
Boss fights are some of the most fair I've seen in a while. Not once did I die to a boss I felt was cheap, and by the time I killed them I was able to dodge almost everything they threw at me.
I was so impressed with some of the bosses in this game. A lot of people have no idea how hard it can be to make a good boss fight, and this game has a lot of great examples of fun, difficult bosses.
The one that could see through walls was the absolute worst. EMMI sections were easily my least favorite part about the game.
I’m getting the same feeling. The SA-X encounters were quite tense in Fusion even though played it multiple times.
I don’t know, I just replayed Fusion last week and the EMMIs have been way more tense than the SA-X was. I think people just remember it evening scarier than it really was.
I played Fusion for the first time earlier this summer in preparation for Dread and I felt the exact opposite. To me, the SA-X encounters were generally short, not too difficult (one or two later ones being an exception), and pretty obvious what to do, wheras several of the EMMIs I found myself having to make a tense decision of if it was safe to get out of hiding and make a run for it or not, and once running trying to figure out if I should hide again or try and make a final break for the exit.
Really interesting how drastically people's experiences can differ.
I think a lot of us were just younger when we first played Fusion. I was like in middle school when I first played it and remembered being a little terrified of the SA-X encounters. I replayed it a week before dread released and the encounters weren't nearly as intense as I remembered it.
The first couple of times you play maybe, but the SA-X encounters are very scripted for the most part. There's only two encounters where gameplay is involved (three if you count the powerbomb encounter). The EMMIs meanwhile are a threat you always need to navigate past, sometimes several times, before you beat the core boss for that level. Granted getting caught by them is a lot less intimidating than the SA-X but I think thats due to the fact that encounters are all or nothing. You won't have a run in where they fuck you up but you still manage to escape.