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St. Louis County Council votes to overturn mask mandate

St. Louis County Council votes to overturn mask mandate

UsedToBsmart

Whoever wrote that story for channel 4 was having a difficult time. Absolutely brutal to read.


bananabunnythesecond

Probably a bot


BeerCzar

I am confused. Do people need to wear masks tomorrow or not?


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Alan_Shutko

I think it's going to be very, very confusing for a while. I personally suggest that you mask up. If a business is requiring a mask, please mask up. Regardless of a county-wide mandate, individual businesses can set their own policies. If the business doesn't require it, I don't think anyone is going to arrest or ticket you for not wearing a mask. It seems like Page thinks he can make this stick and the council thinks he can't, so it may end up in court. I don't expect anyone to be sticking their neck out until that's resolved. I still would recommend that you wear a mask.


mrbmi513

> I don't think anyone is going to arrest or ticket you for not wearing a mask. PDs of cities in the county can't enforce it (but they can enforce trespassing and disturbing the peace). I'm not sure if county police can enforce it or only accompany health department officials to enforce it.


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Geschirrspulmaschine

I hate when people use the term science in this way.


thiinkbubble

People need to wear masks in indoor spaces regardless of vaccination status because MO is a breeding ground for the delta variant right now. The CDC has updated their masking advice. Nobody is forcing anyone to wear one and they wouldn’t have been even if there was a “mandate” because it is not technically a law but more of a strong suggestion with enough authority for local businesses to put emphasis behind their own requirements and for people to feel like they should take it seriously. Unfortunately it is also good leverage with the public to get people to get vaccinated because we wouldn’t have to be doing this again if they had in the first place.


TheOrionNebula

Anti-mask people have to be the most fragile pansy's in existence. I can handle a piece of cloth touching my face for a few ours when out. They act like someone is putting a swarm of bee's in their mouths.


kprox1994

Just wear it regardless


ManUpYaPansy

Agreed. Wear one pretty much forever now regardless of vaccination status.


TheOrionNebula

That would be amazing, it would help people avoid colds and other infections as well.


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tehKrakken55

Everyone wear one.


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7yearlurkernowposter

It's there, Europe has been hit by anti-restriction protests the last few weeks even if in places like France their proposals are much more stringent than ours. We aren't as different from the rest of the world as we think.


volum3x2

Probably because not all of us work cushy remote jobs and are sick and tired of having our livelihoods yanked around with practically no support or longterm plan


pollyp0cketpussy

Exactly. There's a vaccine, people need to get it, figuring out how to incentivize it and make things more difficult to do without it should be our priority now. I tolerated having my job jeopardized for the sake of safety because I knew that we didn't really have a choice before, we were in a pandemic with no vaccine. At least this time they didn't limit bar hours and capacity. I just absolutely hate having to enforce the mask policy, it's awful.


IHeartSm3gma

And it’s funny that those are the types who’ll tell you that wearing a mask outdoors in 100 degree heat and humidity for 8+ hours a day isn’t “that bad”


FACSteacher

Understand. Teaching, in person, in a mask is awful. Talking to 7 classes of 20-26 students is draining. No mask breaks because there is only a one minute passing period and you have to do hall duty. Lunch is 20 minutes.


2ndstar2lft

Australia has had major antivaxxer/antimasker/antilockdown waves as well.


VanZebra

I'll bring a foreigner's viewpoint into this (I only occasionally lurk on this sub because a relative of mine lives somewhere in St. Louis). In Finland it is a problem. There's way fewer people here, so it's not as visible and doesn't dominate discussions like it does in more populated countries like the US. Definitely exists, though. A good number of Finns are taking COVID very lightly or are just tired of the restrictions. We were down to like 20 cases in the whole country and then soccer fans (I also like soccer but am not an idiot) went to Russia to see the Euros and brought back over 300 cases of the delta variant. And then got all defensive when people got a bit angry. Finns are idiots in general, despite our high-level schools. Tl;dr there are debates or fights over this but they probably don't get as much attention.


PG2009

There are major protests going on in France, Ireland, the UK, and Australia (that I know of), so yes, it's kind of a big deal for those people. Please note: they are much more locked down than we are here, as well.


dontbajerk

Here's an example: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/11/18/936184870/berlin-police-disperse-anti-lockdown-protesters-with-water-cannons


PG2009

"You wear a chin diaper over your mouth?? Disgusting!"


Alan_Shutko

I'm disappointed by this. I'm sure that it doesn't help that Page and the council have been at each other's throats over basically everything. I wonder if the Board of Aldermen will do anything about the city mandate, because that relationship seems equally dysfunctional. The St Louis Pandemic Task Force reported that area hospitals were basically at capacity right now. It sounded to me like if things continue, they would need to free up capacity by reducing other stuff they're doing (presumably elective surgery and the like, but they were not specific). This is not the time you want to need medical care. So, folks. Get the shot if you haven't. Consider masking up indoors, because Delta spreads so easily. Get N95 or similar masks, because they offer you more protection and they are much more available. And consider being a bit less risky in other areas of your life... maybe stop juggling chainsaws, because the ERs might not be as able to treat you.


volum3x2

Get the vaccine. That should be the sole focus. Passing unenforceable mask mandates will not stop the pandemic, which is clear as day.


sharingan10

> Get the vaccine. Look that’s easier said than done. I’m vaccinated. Clearly telling people to get the vaccine hasn’t worked. If the state is this pissy over a *mask mandate* they’re never going to actually make people get the vaccine


2ndstar2lft

Thanks to those not vaxxing, not masking, etc... the virus was given enough refuge to mutate to this delta variant, which now has begun causing symptom even in vaccinated people. The "mah freedoms" people (who would very quickly strip away someone ELSE'S freedoms so long as it's a freedom they don't agree with) are going to be the reason this never ends.


ellismarkman

And if people are concerned... can't they just wear a mask? No one is saying people can't wear masks. If you are vaccinated and wearing a mask, good for you. If you are vaccinated and not wearing a mask, good for you. It really is that simple.


sharingan10

> It really is that simple. It’s not. The longer this thing goes on the more likely that hospitals will be stretched too thin. That impacts the ability for people to get elective surgery, to get emergency medical treatment, etc… the longer this particular variant is out there the more likely a new even worse variant is to occur.


radio934texas

Looks like we're still informing people that masks prevent the spread FROM infected people very effectively but are no where as effective at protecting the vulnerable.


bananabunnythesecond

The CDC did say, if you don't have the vaccine you have to wear a mask. They used the the honor system and the covidiots didn't follow the rules, now we all have to suffer, again.


TheDevilsAutocorrect

It would be that simple if masks were 100% effective.


The-Great-Cornhollio

My boots getting wet never stopped me from using an umbrella lol


TheDevilsAutocorrect

Great. But I can't just wear a mask and *prevent* my children from getting delta variant from me. I wear a mask still in public to reduce the risk of bringing delta home to them. But if these other fuckwits would wear their masks and stop pissing on my umbrella and telling me it was raining, I wouldn't have to wear piss boots back to the house as often.


RedmondTheRobot

I swear, there's always some stupid saying to go along with these beliefs. Maybe critically thinking about the situation with the information we have is a better approach than a poor analogy.


McNepsha

People still wouldn't wear them because freedoms or some or dumbass excuse. I'm done telling people to wear masks or get the vaccine. You can't fix stupid, but covid can.


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marigolds6

Also doesn't help that Page keeps insisting that the health department issue these orders only through his emergency executive orders and not through their own orders. What the county council actually did was terminate his emergency orders, which removed the mask order because it was the only current order issued under his emergency order. But if the health order is not issued under Page's executive order, then he doesn't have the authority to unilaterally authorize spending without council review based on the health order.


Panwall

The County Council is a joke. They couldn't care less about the thousands of Missourians that have already died. Do the smart thing and wear a mask.


vivaelbirdos11

Freaking St Charles has a higher vax rate than STL City. Let’s look inward and get things done.


ihavenodecorum

If I received the shots in another city, would the data still show me as a part of the St. Louis City population that has been vaccinated?


7yearlurkernowposter

[Second](https://morbotron.com/meme/S04E06/333265.jpg?b64lines=U2Vjb25kLgog) This mandate was more political game than actual public health advice anyway.


jerslan

CDC is starting to recommend that vaccinated people wear masks in public spaces in regions with spikes of this new variant. They were encouraged to do this by ***multiple*** public health officials & experts after all the "but the CDC says I don't have to" complaints. So... yeah, it's definitely actual public health advice and not so much a political game. They are seeing "breakthrough" infections in vaccinated people. The symptoms are much more mild compared to unvaccinated, but if you exhibit symptoms then it means you were asymptomatic and spreading for at least a few days.


ihaveacatnamedwally

Does this actually change anything? Or now it just goes to court?


7yearlurkernowposter

Looking at the [press release for the new law](https://governor.mo.gov/press-releases/archive/governor-parson-signs-hb-271-regarding-local-public-health-orders-and) they are limited to 30 days max in a 180 day period. Until something major happens the next mandate can be a max of 28 days without extra bureaucratic hurdles.


9bpm9

The law says it has to limit accessibility to things like businesses. A mask mandate DOES NOT. Their dumbass law doesn't even apply and it's embarrassing we have council members who seemingly can't understand that it doesn't apply. >directly or indirectly restrict access to businesses, churches, schools, or other places of assembly


mrbmi513

My understanding under subsection 2 is that any mandate, regardless of impact on business, can be rescinded by the county council, and that the only special thing about orders impacting businesses is the initial time limit. I'm not fluent in legalese, though. Edit: [Here's the full text. Starts at the bottom of page 11.](https://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills211/hlrbillspdf/0195H.08T.pdf)


evan1123

>Any order issued during and related to an emergency declared pursuant to chapter 44 that directly or indirectly closes, partially closes, or places restrictions on the opening of or access to any one or more business organizations, churches, schools, or other places of public or private gathering or assembly, including any order, ordinance, rule, or regulation of general applicability or that prohibits or otherwise limits attendance at any public or private gathering [....] And >Any order of general applicability issued at a time other than an emergency declared pursuant to chapter 44 that directly or indirectly closes an entire classification of business organizations, churches, schools, or other places of public or private gathering or assembly [...] Requiring masks does none of these things. Subsection two applies to orders made pursuant to these criteria only.


mrbmi513

However, subsection 2 says "under this section," not "under subsection 1." Edit: Subsection 4 specifically mentions orders under Subsection 1, though, which leads me to believe subsection 2 applies to all orders. Not a legalese expert, though.


evan1123

Experts said as much on STL On the Air today https://news.stlpublicradio.org/show/st-louis-on-the-air/2021-07-27/ags-lawsuit-against-st-louis-mask-mandates-has-difficult-road-experts-say


binkerfluid

I wonder if the hospitals overfill and shit gets really bad if any of these people will come forward and accept responsibility?


dryh2o

Freedom isn't free! Some people have to die so I can be free! Don't tread on me! Keep your fake COVID news away from me and my children! What? Momma's sick with the COVID? But how can that be? It's all fake news! She's on a ventilator? Oh, lordy. Everyone on Facebook, please pray for momma! The hospital is trying to tell us she has the COVID, but we KNOW that what is really going on is that they want her insurance money! Oh no! Momma's dead! They said she had the COVID but since I read an article once that it was fake, I don't believe in it no more. They killed momma so they could take her insurance money and give it to the democrats who want to take away our bibles and American flags! Sleepy Joe is one of the lizard people and he's going to get AOC pregnant with lizard babies who will close all of the churches! I know it's true cause I saw it on Facebook AND Twitter!


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DTDude

And remember the post 6 months down the road....a post made in outrage when they get a $150,000 bill from the hospital for stuff insurance wouldn't cover. A post that yet again somehow blames the democrats even though we push for socialized healthcare.


TrollTan

Add in a sprinkle of "it was her time to go" even though she was 62, in good health, and "living her best life" before this


baroqueworks

my coworker straight up "he was old something was else was bound to kill him" to his 80 year old uncle dying of COVID, not sure if they're just that selfish of people or if they're that bent on refusing to admit they took the wrong stance on COVID, either or it's frustrating


BallinThatJack

I’ve said this before, but I was in a serious motorcycle wreck at the height of covid and had no trouble getting into the hospital. With people vaccinated now, will it be harder to get in or do the vaccines work?


binkerfluid

I dont know but I know the small towns were filling up and having to send patients here. The vaccines might not work if it mutates enough in all the people who dont get them as well.


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binkerfluid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_ships_designated_for_the_COVID-19_pandemic they were used, though not in huge numbers here is an interesting tidbit though thats probably relevant to the discussion at hand https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-usa-usns-comfort-depa/little-used-navy-hospital-ship-comfort-leaves-new-york-after-treating-covid-19-patients-idUSKBN22D4BG "But the extra capacity was never needed, with the feared capacity issues staved off by stay-at-home orders and social distancing measures." also worth noting "here were still over 680 military healthcare personnel deployed in hospitals and elsewhere. “The hospitals... have the capacity, they just don’t have the staff,” he said." So it sounds like efforts to slow the spread, much like efforts we are trying to stop here, may have helped and even so they still had to send many doctors and medical personnel to help in the city.


TheDevilsAutocorrect

People will say that it is y2k all over again. They won't understand why they are right. The disaster we were warned of was avoided because of the actions we took to mitigate it.


FL3TCHL1V3S

Exactly!


imdirtydan1997

If you’re vaccinated, do what you want. If you’re not vaccinated, please wear a mask. If a County business requests you wear a mask regardless of vaccination, wear a mask. If someone is wearing a mask, don’t harass them. If they’re not, don’t harass them. Let’s just all respect each others choices regarding masks.


jerslan

Even if you're vaccinated, wear a mask. You can still get & spread this variant and not even know it. Before someone jumps in with "but CDC says..."... The CDC is changing their recommendation to include vaccinated people wearing masks when in public spaces in COVID hot spots.


TitsForLife

If you’re wearing a seatbelt you can still die in a car wreck. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t help


RamzFanz

Nope. Not really. Asymptomatic people aren’t spreading it and vaccinated people are almost entirely asymptomatic. I wore the mask correctly and at all times I should, as did my entire family, for over a year, at my urging. I got vaccinated ASAP, as did my entire family. NOW, I’m moving on and leaving the fools on both sides behind. I’ll get boosters, I’ll watch variants, but I’m not going to be anyone’s lackey for political purposes. If you think asymptomatic people are spreading it, you’re ignoring the science.


jerslan

> Asymptomatic people aren’t spreading it and vaccinated people are almost entirely asymptomatic. Please cite your source for those very bold claims.


Van_Doofenschmirtz

He goes a little far in implying it’s not possible, but the data suggests that while not impossible, it’s unlikely. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/experts-say-its-unlikely-fully-vaccinated-people-are-unknowingly-spreading-covid-19 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7


WorseThanHipster

Less likely doesn’t necessarily mean *unlikely*. If your viral load is small, if you’re not coughing, if you’re not shedding lung tissue, these will all lower the amount of live virus you spread around, but the idea that “I don’t feel sick, I’m safe, you can’t catch it from me” is not only wrong, but a dangerous idea to spread around.


mrbmi513

> Asymptomatic people aren’t spreading it That was the thinking at the beginning of the pandemic, but has since been proven incorrect, especially with Delta.


Teeklin

Literally the entire reason this pandemic is so bad is because asymptomatic people are absolutely spreading it. You don't know what you're talking about. Stop spreading bullshit lies.


FL3TCHL1V3S

Right! And you also have presymtomatic and mild symptomatic folks spreading.


Teeklin

COVID would have been stopped in its tracks like SARS if all we had to do was keep people home when they exhibited symptoms. The whole reason we are facing such a hard road ahead is that anyone can be spreading it without knowing they even have it.


FL3TCHL1V3S

Exactly. When I got it, I tested positive 2 days before I exhibited any symptoms. I got tested due to a known close contact. It took me 10 days from contact to symptoms and I honestly wouldn’t have thought it was Covid until 3 days after that, when I lost my sense of taste and smell… Fortunately, I was notified of the close contact, tested and quarantined in time so I don’t believe that I infected anyone else… At any rate, yes, the way this presents makes it incredibly hard to contain.


TraptNSuit

It isn't good to harass anyone, but I'll be damned if I have to respect people who can't think enough of others to wear a piece of cloth over their faces for a bit. I will silently judge them or roll my eyes.


CorgiNamedClark

>I will silently judge them or roll my eyes. the horror


TraptNSuit

Which is pretty much the point. Those of us responsible types have been fucked by the "eh what's 600,000 deaths anyway?" types for over a year now. I can't do anything about them electing morons to office, but I don't have to respect them.


NoodlesrTuff1256

And if they are the owners of a business who openly advocate this anti-mask and anti-vaccination nonsense, boycott them!


POFusr

If you're willing to take medical advice from a politician, go for it.


DefNotIWBM

What are some things you can do if you are so fucking pissed about this that you can’t stand it? Like this Tom Fitch guy, when is he up for re-election? Does he have an opponent yet? What can we do? I have an immunosuppressed kid and this is a punch in the gut. I am furious. Also, I don’t feed trolls. Just sharing that in advance. Edit: Sorry I said no shit. I am just so frustrated and worried, and this has gone on too long. I’m so angry about last night’s decision. I realize not everyone is, but we are.


marigolds6

My immunosuppressed nephew was able to get vaccinated early on the recommendation of his doctor specifically because he is immunosuppressed. The vaccine was effective in him for producing antibodies at a level sufficient to protect him. I am sure you have already discussed this with your doctor, but you might want to continue to follow up on this as it can take quite a bit of pushing to get admitted to the trials under age 12.


IHeartSm3gma

Go about your day and mask up if you so choose to? Nobody is saying it's illegal to still wear masks.


DefNotIWBM

My mask won’t be helpful enough if I walk into a room of Covid particles but thanks anyway. Also, as mentioned above I am more worried for my immunocompromised child. She is on an immunosuppressant for Crohn’s Disease.


IHeartSm3gma

>My mask won’t be helpful enough if I walk into a room of Covid particles but thanks anyway. I'm just gonna leave this here


63110

Genuinely wondering what would have changed for you and your child. The mask mandate was lifted months ago for vaccinated people. Obviously unvaccinated people have been breaking this rule. Have you been sheltering in place all this time? EDIT Getting a lot of upvote / downvote action. I’m genuinely curious as to what would have changed in terms of daily life for this family.


DefNotIWBM

Yes, we are mostly still sheltering in place. However, when cases were low we went out for essential appts. Now it feels like we can’t go out at all again. There is only so much going to the park we can do. My kids need to go to school For their mental health. Their school has not decided on masks yet. I felt better with the mandate and now it’s up in the air again.


julieannie

I got a haircut, my gallbladder removed, a few patio dining experiences and a half dozen shopping trips during the decreased cases. Now I can't even go out for a patio dinner for my birthday this week. I'm really tempted to but case counts plus bad air quality are pretty much ruining that. I'm so tired of having to be on guard but I can't afford to let down my guard because if I'm hospitalized, I will need advanced care that is very limited now.


SNIJYM

For what it’s worth, cases are still 1/4 to 1/3 of what they were during the worst stretches of covid pre vaccine.


julieannie

Only in the metro right now. Statewide we are mirroring January/February. Springfield is leveling but we're increasing so our city will mirror that period soon.


binkerfluid

I would suggest calling and mailing him and expressing your concerns and mention your kid.


imakeholesinu

Vote, and get 10 friends in your district to.


DefNotIWBM

Do you know when the next vote is? Looking through any gov’t webpage for info is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


EmergencyDancePants

https://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/calendar/default


DefNotIWBM

Awesome, thank you!


imakeholesinu

He's up for re-election in 2022.


DefNotIWBM

Excellent.


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DefNotIWBM

Let’s be real, though. They wouldn’t have supported him even if he had reached out in advance.


7yearlurkernowposter

That I'm not sure about, some people definitely wouldn't have but not all.


BIGJake111

The best thing you can do is to get a vaccine, wear a mask, and socially distance. No one is stopping you from doing any of the above.


DefNotIWBM

No shit. Unfortunately in indoor settings if unvaccinated people are unmasked it raises our risk significantly, even if we mask and social distance. That shit hangs in the air for hours, you know.


EnvironmentalClub410

You want to replace the whole county government? It wasn’t even close, it got voted down 5-2. Also, if you’re so concerned about this why didn’t you go and make yourself heard? Of the 60 citizens who spoke during the public comment period, only 2 or 3 were in favor of the mandate.


scruffles360

> Of the 60 citizens who spoke during the public comment period, only 2 or 3 were in favor of the mandate. Wow. You mean the public indoor mass gathering didn’t attract people who are against public indoor mass gatherings?!? Shocked!


TheMekar

Or the more likely answer: this mandate is extremely unpopular with just about everyone in the region except the types of people who spend all their time at home on Reddit or Twitter so they won’t be affected anyway.


Whiz69

This.


DefNotIWBM

I did submit a comment ONLINE prior to the meeting. I’m still AVOIDING CROWDS as I have an immunosuppressed child, as mentioned above. Thanks though


POFusr

The ignorance epidemic reigns


loftysteele

If you want to wear a mask go ahead, no one is stopping you. Just an FYI.


waystonebb

Except all the unmasked people will continue to spread covid and further burden our healthcare system and we will never get out ahead


loftysteele

Whats the alternative here? Everyone wears a mask forever? Force vaccinations onto people? The reality is that the vaccines have been readily available to the public for MONTHS now. Everyone that wants to get vaccinated has been vaccinated by this point. (yes, I know there are immunocompromised people and kids, but that is a small portion of the population, which hopefully soon will be able to get vaccinated i.e kids The unvaccinated people have made their mind up long ago and imposing a mask mandate on these people wasn't going to work anyway (draw a venn diagram on mask usage, anti-vaccination beliefs and general covid apathy. Hint: it's the same circle for the most part). You're literally only forcing masks onto to people who have already been vaccinated and have already tried to do the right thing all along with the promise that if they kept up their duty for a long enough period they would be rewarded with lesser restrictions.


FrostyD7

The alternative was for people to get vaxxed and/or unvaxxed people to continue masking up. Neither efforts were successful so here we are.


kitzunenotsuki

I vote force vaccination. Since I don’t think we can do that legally, I vote every business requires a check in your vaccination record. All children must be vaccinated when available to go to school. Like all the other vaccinations they have to take. Companies require their workers. Travel requires vaccination records. Eventually they’ll have to stay at home or get the Vax. We shouldn’t stay at home for them anymore.


Charles_Skyline

> I vote force vaccination. Since I don’t think we can do that legally, Most states, I do believe, if you get publicly educated you have to be vaccinated. I.E Measles, Mumps, Polio.. the service industry in most states require you to get Hep A vaccines. It is completely legal for them to force vaccination. Businesses don't typically because logically thinking you are already vaccinated if you went to school.. even if you went home schooled, but went to college you'd have to be up to date on your shots. the only single argument against doing this, is the fact the FDA hasn't fully passed the covid vaccine yet. They are close... and I think as soon as that happens.. you force it. Want to work? Publicly educated? Go to college? Shop? You have to be vaccinated.


TheOrionNebula

>Whats the alternative here? Everyone wears a mask forever? It would be nice to eradicate the fucking virus like so many others we did. The more these fucking idiots spread it, the more mutations happen, AKA variants. We have no idea if soon a new vaccine *resistant* variant will show up. But if it does it's due to the un-vaccinated willingly becoming hosts. So we won't need masks *forever* IF people would get vaccinated and shut this shit down.


IHeartSm3gma

So say we somehow by some miracle hit that 70-80% thresh hold, and delta mutates into the ligma variant or whatever the hell and that's having an effect on vaccinated, then what


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TheOrionNebula

>That's why it's so fucking serious that people get vaccinated 6 months ago and never stop masking. I have bring this shit up non-stop, it's the very reason why we can't say "fuck those people, it's there funeral". It possibly could re-boot 2020, and I don't think *anyone* want's that.


scruffles360

I never stopped. It doesn’t entirely solve the problem though does it? Anyone (vaccinated or not) can spread COVID to my unvaccinated children and immune compromised parents and no one is wearing masks. So the only real choice is whether it’s worth it to go out. If people would mask up, we could live near-normal lives. But we won’t because I’m surrounded by selfish pricks.


pollyp0cketpussy

The same people that won't mask up are the same people who won't get the vaccine. I've been unmasked for the most part over the last 2 months because I'm fully vaccinated, and the chances of a fully vaccinated person passing it on is actually pretty low. Like lower than a masked up unvaccinated person. The solution isn't mask rules, the solution is the vaccine and making it mandatory to get for most areas of life.


scruffles360

I completely agree that vaccines are the path forward. I just see masks as a stop gap until we get everyone vaccinated. As far as the effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing spread of Delta, the science is still out on that. I suspect we’re going to find out when it’s all said and done that vaccinated people are spreading it a lot less, but enough to be a major problem. Just an educated guess at this point, but when the stakes are a small piece of cloth on your face, it seems silly not to take the extra precaution.


SNIJYM

Vaccinated people are still spreading it enough to be a problem is your educated guess. Based on what? I’ve seen reports 99.7% of new cases are from the unvaccinated population. It doesn’t rule out spread by vaccinated people, but it sure seems likely the unvaccinated people (not a small minority) are spreading it to one another.


pollyp0cketpussy

The issue isn't requiring masks alone. If requiring them actually got everyone to wear them correctly, I'd be on board. But the same people that will follow the mask rules are primarily going to be people who are already vaccinated. This isn't going to put masks on the people that really ought to be wearing them. The same people that wouldn't comply with the original mask mandate are the same people who aren't getting vaccinated. I'm mad because we need to grow a pair and actually make some mandates and laws that make it genuinely inconvenient to be unvaccinated. Make people prove that they're vaccinated to get into bars and restaurants. Make people prove their vaccinated to fly. Shit, straight up pay people to get the vaccine (and those who already have it).


narcissarose

Yep. That’s the suckiest thing about this pandemic is to realize so many people aren’t willing to wear a piece of cloth in public places to protect people like us. They seriously do not care if our family members die. Not sure how I am supposed to maintain a friendly attitude towards people like this.


TraptNSuit

You are apparently supposed to only ever be super polite and deferential to their feelings because they won't be responsible otherwise. I get that to a certain extent, yelling at them to get vaccines will never work. But, we tried being nice for months while trying to get everyone vaccines. People wear masks if everyone is doing it. They don't worry about being socially called out. So now they need to know that being anti-vax is not going to be normalized. And that is apparently going to be quite the fight since such a large part of the population seems to want to stick by their harmful choices (goes for much of politics these days). I think we should be done with the nice thing for the pandemic. That phase has passed. If you show willful disdain for the safety of your community in the face of such obvious and widespread consequences, you should be treated as the hazard that you are now.


Adodie

>If people would mask up, we could live near-normal lives. I'm sorry, but this is giving way too much credit to masks' efficacy. They help, but we can't just pretend they are a silver bullet. Consider: we've had over 600,000 confirmed COVID deaths, *despite* widespread mask mandates (not to mention a whole host of other severe restrictions). Places where compliance has been high have seen devastating outbreaks as well. The only way out of this is vaccination


binkerfluid

Im gonna drunk drive. If you want to drive sober go ahead, no one is stopping you. I shouldnt be responsible for your safety. Just because my selfish and dangerous behavior puts you at risk shouldnt be my concern.


loftysteele

> Im gonna drunk drive. Oh boy! We better close all the roads to protect you!


RE90

Not the most outrageous idea when 60% of drivers are drunk


binkerfluid

the roads arnt closed and neither are the stores you just are supposed to not be a danger to those around you...but you all dont believe in that so good luck on the roads!


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1haiku4u

Mask wearing (mild inconvenience) vs road closures (massive inconvenience).


vixenpeon

I'm just worried about people not wearing them because they're anxious about someone being confrontational at them for choosing to wear one. It's happened to me and was easy enough to shrug off but not everybody can and some people are really bringing the crazy. Being held back from your decisions cus you're afraid of people attacking you for it is bullshit and really says a lot about the state of our society that this can be a concern


Trexy

I was walking in a crowded area in Saint Charles last fall and wearing a mask. Some young woman and another person literally revved their engines and screamed at me that I was a "f*cking idiot" for wearing a mask. I had my small children with me and they were terrified. We had been having such a lovely day and that really ruined it.


NoodlesrTuff1256

What part of St. Charles Country? Or was this in the city of St. Charles itself? Just asking because I'd like to avoid such backwards brain-dead hoosiers should I ever have to cross the county line.


Trexy

It was the walking trail near the RecPlex in St. Peters. I really couldn't believe what was happening. Like, it was just full blown insanity. My oldest was 4 at the time and she was truly terrified at why someone was screaming at us. I tried to play it off (because we do directly impact how our kids remember/react to situations) but man it was hard.


TheOrionNebula

Just don't come into the county at all if you want to avoid these types of people, it's such a hit or miss place. You got the overall trash that rev engines, yell fuck you at people with children (like above). Then you got the people who talk loudly near you about their "views and then you got the dirty lookers. All seemingly influenced by demographics. The number one rule of thumb is to stay the fuck away from Walmart regardless what area you are in. It's a damn magnet for assholes.


TheOrionNebula

My buddy and his little kids got harassed in a parking lot by some douche bag awhile back. Called him a libtard and ask him why he is wearing one etc. My buddy told the guy he wears one for the same reason he carries a gun, to protect his family. The guy shut his mouth and walked away.


PG2009

Yes, people should respect everyone's choice to wear or not wear a mask.


TheOrionNebula

Had to love the mask at the polls situation. It made it obvious who my wife and I were voting for.


FrostyD7

Except for the unvaxxed.


loftysteele

>Yes, people should respect everyone's choice to wear or not wear a mask. Amen to that.


looneysquash

I want to go about my life as normal without encountering unmasked individuals.


LailaDawn

Honestly, I can't believe something as basic as public health during a viral outbreak has been so politicized that in the 21st century people don't understand to wear a mask and get a vaccine. To the point they think it's a hill to die on rather than public cooperation. All this talk in this country about being Christian or being a great nation, a city on a hill yet we won't do something as simple as cover our mouths and noses, something everyone was taught to do as a child when they sneeze so as to not spread "germs". This has been the most depressing thing to live through.


FunkyChewbacca

The Delta variant is [ripping it's way through Springfield and the Ozarks as we speak.](https://www.4029tv.com/article/springfield-nurse-says-ive-seen-more-covid-deaths-in-two-weeks-than-past-6-months/37083100#) [27 deaths over the last weekend alone in SW MO.](https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253030613.html) It's only a matter of time before the escalating death toll arrives here. Wear a mask, get vaccinated, no matter what.


Newa6eoutlw

At this point just let nature run it’s course.


LazarWolfsKosherDeli

It's all theater at this point. I'm vaccinated, and I drove a total of ten goddamn hours to do so. Public health has been poorly managed from the bottom to the top from the WHO to the local health department. It's a shit show. Misinformation put out to manage public response to the pandemic helped destroy public trust. Remember when masks weren't recommended for non-frontline workers? Remember when they were to protect other people, not you? Public health constantly switching the narrative exacerbated vaccine hesitancy. That's not letting any politician off the hook, and you know who I mean, but both sides of the aisle should be saying their mea culpas. The people who are willing to be vaccinated have gotten the shot. Everyone else has made their choice. Sorry if you're immune compromised; sometimes the dice roll snake eyes. Nobody is coming to help.


oliveorvil

They said to leave certain masks for frontline workers because there was a shortage.. because a certain president refused to invoke executive powers to get factories to mass produce them. Once we had enough masks they said it was ok for everyone to order them again. Most masks are still one way protection (for the most part, there may me minimal protection but not enough to count on) unless it is an N95 NIOSH type mask. All of this info can be found on the CDC site. Science works by adjusting to new information.. Constantly trying to validate what we know and then adjusting. This narrative that everything that the CDC, Fauci, Page or anyone with authority has said is bullshit because information and strategies change just flabbergasts me. I think if someone honestly gets that pissed off that they’re being “told what to do” because they can’t put 5 mins a day aside to keep up with new info means they’ve got a big ego and need to work on that because it’s clearly affecting their logic.


melaniedz

Can confirm; I work in an OR, and March-May 2020 we were allocated 1 N95 per week max, and couldn’t use more than one paper mask per day. Multiple people were fired after being caught taking boxes home. They even had a bin where you would dispose of used paper masks and N95s to be “sterilized” in case we completely ran out. Bleh. Disposable hairnets were also on backorder (they encouraged us to make cloth hair coverings at home, which they hadn’t allowed us to do before), and there were very few sterile gowns for the surgeons to perform surgery in. STL didn’t have many COVID patients at that time, but elective surgeries had to be canceled because we didn’t have enough PPE to safely perform surgeries.


evan1123

I really think there's a lack of understanding about how science works, how pandemics work, and how our response evolves to changing conditions. Public health's treatment of the messaging has been consistent in responding to current conditions and scientific evidence. The text of the actual orders made has been in plain language that almost anyone should be able to understand. Somewhere there's a disconnect between how this stuff is supposed to work (hint: it's working as designed) and what people expect. Some of the blame can certainly be placed on the buffoon we had in the white house last year. More blame can be placed on media outlets and disinformation the muddied the waters about what was actually going on. I don't know how we fix this, but I know that there are plenty of people smarter than me that will learn from this mess and figure out what we can do to ensure it isn't repeated.


Mikazukinoyaiba

>people smarter than me that will learn from this mess and figure out what we can do to ensure it isn't repeated. and we will be subsequently ignored by the politicians like we always have been


evan1123

I choose to be optimistic that we can improve, at least with the current makeup at the federal level. Heck, even at the local level we have a mayor and county executive with medical backgrounds. It's just those pesky legislative bodies....


Mikazukinoyaiba

>Remember when masks weren't recommended for non-frontline workers? Remember when they were to protect other people, not you? Public health constantly switching the narrative exacerbated vaccine hesitancy. Information changes when dealing w/ a novel virus, that is a fact of life. That's not misinformation, that's the changing dynamic of a novel virus which requires lots of research that can be difficult to assess what is correct and what is wrong. The only misinformation out there that is destroying public trust is that brought by the anti-vaxxers. >Sorry if you're immune compromised; sometimes the dice roll snake eyes. Nobody is coming to help. This is why this country, for all of its bostering, is actually quite weak.


IGotsMeSomeParanoia

americans are probably the only people who suck down enough media agitprop that frames their degeneracy as a strength


jerslan

Yeah, while Americans are pretty bad about that... Some European countries aren't any better. Hell, the UK's PM is what you'd get if you ordered Donald Trump on Wish.


evan1123

>Hell, the UK's PM is what you'd get if you ordered Donald Trump on Wish. I audibly chuckled


TraptNSuit

That's some American exceptionalism you have going on there. The English are champions at sucking down agitprop. But really there are tons of nations that do.


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cgoldberg3

Tucker Carlson? I don't think it's his viewers that are refusing the vaccine in St Louis City. Which BTW is less vaccinated than St Charles county and St Louis county.


63110

Hyperbole. USA has been in a constant state of transition redefining rights and questioning authority & the status quo for generations. It’s what makes our nation so great. And sometimes not so great. When we knew very little about the virus, the entire world shut down for 12 weeks. This would obviously be the reaction to a highly contagious highly deadly pandemic. We know a lot more today. We have developed groundbreaking vaccines that are widely available, and have formulations for variants and boosters under development. Turns out, you cannot force civilians to do something they’re uncomfortable with, and it’s very likely we will NEVER see the end of COVID (much like the flu).


aeywaka

Reddit yesterday: Its for your own good do as your told. Reddit today: wailing and mashing of teeth, ohb lordy it's the end of the world guys, it's going to be ok promise, deep breaths..


Revolutionary-Rush89

What a joke. Personally I’ve come down to this, you don’t want the vaccine and you don’t want to wear a mask that’s fine but you’re on the hook for all of the hospital fees to help keep your moronic ass alive. Insurance companies could fix this real quick and get out of paying a huge amount of bills, all they have to do is deny your coverage because you didn’t take the recommended medical advice.


Folklore72

Im assuming you’d hold that same standard to obese people (who take the win for being the most costly aspect of health care) and those who smoke? This is a bad take dude, re think it


IHeartSm3gma

>Im assuming you’d hold that same standard to obese people (who take the win for being the most costly aspect of health care) and those who smoke? Yes


Panwall

Except a person being fat doesn't kill grandma by breathing on her...


Folklore72

But the people who are fat make up 80% of the coronavirus deaths. It’s not pretty or nice to say but it’s the truth.


Panwall

Oh so we're just making up facts now? >More than 900,000 adult COVID-19 hospitalizations occurred in the United States between the beginning of the pandemic and November 18, 2020. Models estimate that 271,800 (30.2%) of these hospitalizations were attributed to obesity. [Source](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html) The number one factor in death was being old (over 65). More so, the common factor that killed all these people? That 100% of all cases had that died?....Coronavirus...they all died because they caught the virus.


Revolutionary-Rush89

But as an over weight smoker I’d say if my insurance was going to get pulled because of my weight and or smoking habit I’d probably try a little harder at improving my health. Sometime consequences need to be felt. But I understand my knee jerk reaction was unfounded and cruel.


Revolutionary-Rush89

Maybe it is but I’m all out of ideas. Can’t get most of this state to just the smallest thing to help their neighbors. It’s ridiculous. Lost all faith in people doing what’s best for their community.


evan1123

We are truly fucked


kprox1994

I'm back to double masking to protect me from these idiots.


thelaztdaze

To be fair, the CDC started this ball rolling with its abrupt about face. Sam Page chose to go along with the CDC. It is not as simple as merely “these idiots.” It has a lot to do with mixed messaging. I think it is naive not to see this as the root cause of tonight’s development.


binkerfluid

They assumed Americans would be responsible and logical and get vaccinated and wear a mask if they werent vaccinated. The breakdown was their trust in the American people.


Churlish_Turd

Science changes every day. Not just the science around Covid, but all science. That’s the nature of science


oliveorvil

It’s not an abrupt about face if numbers slowly creep back up and they make recommendations once they reach a certain level. Go look at a map of infections by county and how quickly this variant is spreading compared to the last. People act like the CDC just gets bored and power hungry and makes policy out of their ass.. sheesh


thelaztdaze

I can’t understand why so many people think the CDC is somehow different than any other bureaucracy. Yes, they have done good work and are staffed by some very capable people, but this doesn’t mean that they are beyond politics or making policies based on political calculi. It is super naive to see the CDC as a completely altruistic agency that is only concerned about public health.


Panwall

Inconvenient messaging? Yes. Mixed? No. They are changing their message based on the available data. Infections were down, so no masks. Infections on the rise, now including breakthrough cases, its time for masks again. You're being angry at a traffic signal for changing colors.


mrbmi513

I think Page was a few days ahead of the CDC this time around. They didn't update their guidelines until this morning.


jerslan

> To be fair, the CDC started this ball rolling with its abrupt about face. Are you talking about the very recent CDC recommendation that vaccinated individuals mask up when in public spaces in regions with COVID spikes? Because that was a direct result of several public health officials & experts begging them to make that change due to all the idiots complaining "but the CDC says I don't have to!" when they (the experts in the field of public health) feel they need to reinstitute mask mandates.


Churlish_Turd

I’m going to say it here for anyone reading along- the CDC didn’t do an “about face” on their mask recommendation. The earlier recommendation, that vaccinated people no longer needed to wear masks, was recommended for the original strain. We’re not dealing with that strain as much anymore as Delta has become the prominent strain. Delta is far more contagious than the original strain, and the current data shows that vaccinated people can still contract and spread the Delta variant. Hence, changing the recommendation that everyone, regardless of vaccine status, should wear a mask indoors to limit the spread of the Delta variant


kprox1994

CDC has been idiots as well with the mixed messaging


oliveorvil

What has been mixed about their messaging? Cases are back up so they’re making recommendations based on that.. new info, adjustments get made..


thedude37

but if they change their message that means they can't be trusted! It's not like they're updating their best practices based on available data! /s


oliveorvil

I think you actually hit the nail on the head here. No one that gets mad about “mixed messaging” actually looks at the data, let alone on a daily or weekly basis so they can base decisions on it. They just hear “mixed messaging” and get annoyed because they hoped things would just go back to normal again.. and when everything doesn’t return to normal like they hoped they blame the messenger because that’s their only source of info and it seems inconsistent, when viewed through such a narrow lens. Oh and also the talking heads on the right are constantly talking shit on scientists and making every possible aspect of this as political as they can to generate clicks and ratings. Seems like we only go backwards..


Badbadbobo

*inhales* *SCREAMS*


7yearlurkernowposter

Your move Lewis Reed, time to prove you aren't useless for the first time in your life.


loftysteele

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the city tbh.


Bissrok

Ah, the freedom to kill others through ignorance. That's some pure, unfiltered MO right there.


jock_lindsay

It’s amazing how little people give a shit about each other anymore. The social contract is broken.


timeforbirds2018

Thank you!


mim_Armand

Translation: St. Louis County Council wants more people to die.


lavalampmaster

Honestly if you're medically capable of being vaccinated and aren't by now, you deserve it


mim_Armand

The problem is that they are not just harming themselves, they are putting nurses, doctors, first responders, and all of society at risk. This thing was plateauing and it's back to the peak of it again!


arealhumdinger

Fucking good.


BIGJake111

No one will stop you from wearing one. Things are getting more heated with delta. If you don’t have natural antibodies I would recommend masking right now if social distancing isn’t possible. However a blanket mask mandate that doesn’t care about antibodies or social distancing is pretty stupid and sure as hell shouldn’t come from just one man.