St. Louis police use force against Black residents far more often than whites, study finds
By - doctorsound
I have a feeling this thread will turn out to have nothing but posts that say [Removed]
In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.
> 9 out of 10 times when police pulled a gun, it was at a Black civilian
Considering 87% of suspects for homicides committed this year are black, nothing seems disproportionate here. More crime=more interaction with police.
False dichotomy bro. The people who had a weapon pulled on them were by and large not "murderers"
It’s a microcosm of the problem as a whole. Other violent crime rates likely have similar demographics.
> Considering 87% of suspects for homicides
What % of homicides do they even have suspects for? 50%?
How many times were those civilians suspects for homicide?
Why would those correlate?
I mean why would being a homicide suspect necessitate firearms being pointed at a person who (in the eyes of the law) isn’t found guilty of a crime? This has several dubious presuppositions in there
Homicide suspects are more likely to be armed and dangerous than jay-walkers I assume - they also have much more motivation to not be arrested - life in prison vs a small ticket.
In the eyes of the law they’re not guilty until they’re proven guilty. We also live in a state with extremely high gun ownership. Being armed, and being a suspect in a homicide investigation doesn’t mean that suspects are resisting arrest
Do you actually believe this or do you just hate the idea of cops so much that will attempt to make this argument?
What, you didn’t hear about the Monday morning meetings where the chief tells every cop that whoever pulls their gun on the most black people wins a prize?
That only assumes that we prosecute equitably as well. Nor does it explain the other disparities raised by this article.
You're being disingenuous, suspect doesn't = criminal so that data is very skewed anyway. You seriously don't see a problem with profiling that leads to violent encounters with the police, with police being the ones committing that violence?
It's depressing that you were given gold for abusing statistics.
The two statistics you cited do not have a direct relationship, just becuse 87% of suspects for homicides were Black ignores that the denominators for 9/10 when STLPD have used force it was on Black civilians are not the same.
This is the same bullshit argument that is used to justify cops pulling over Black motorists more often than White motorists, regardless of whether there is just cause or not.
Peelian Principle 6 – “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”
Probably the most routinely ignored Peelian Principles of Policing American law enforcement do
That's because you need a mechanism to punish the police when they violate that principle.
Plus the language of the principle itself shows the tautological logic. By definition whatever force the police use is what they are going to claim was necessary to enforce the law.
It's counter intuitive but maybe perfect adherence to the law shouldn't be the outcome.
A lot of issues like this. Segregation is still very prominent. Rich neighborhoods right next to very poor neighborhoods. School districts that get scarce funding due to their local tax revenue. Over policing the poor neighborhoods without any long term solutions to decades of inequality. White flight, etc etc etc
I for one am *shocked* by this.
Is it because maybe just maybe that use of force is simply needed with greater disparity? This report requires multi-variate analysis, otherwise it is just clickbait.
Why do our Black neighbors need more use of force?
I don't know enough about the study done here to make any claims, but the question seems valid. The logic isn't too hard:
- What situations happen where use of force by police is merited? (This is, of course, itself a complicated question.)
- Do those situations occur equally in neighborhoods of all different racial predominance? (Or maybe neighborhoods are a bad way to do this? Not sure.)
- If not, how much more or less often do they happen in predominantly black neighborhoods than predominantly white neighborhoods, and how does that compare to the rate of use of force in those neighborhoods? (Again, maybe neighborhoods introduces confounding factors.)
The question "Why do black people need more use of force?" is a leading question. Implied in its phrasing is that police use force against black people because they think "black people" (just as a general population) "need" it. But that may or may not be an accurate reading of the situation (I'm not stating my opinion on whether it's true, just trying to lay out the logic of the issue).
If (if!) it's the case that black people engage in actions meriting use of force by responding police at a higher rate than white people in St. Louis, then that's a pretty straightforward baseline answer for why police might reasonably use force more often in situations with black citizens than white citizens. (Of course, even if (if!) that is the case, that still doesn't mean the use of force isn't disproportionate. But it sure doesn't seem like this study addresses the nuance.)
And if (if!) it is the case that situations meriting force happen at a higher rate among black citizens of STL than white citizens, it seems like the *next* obvious question is the most important one: *Why* the difference in the first place, and how we solve *that* problem? (Rejecting out of hand any of the obvious knee-jerk racist replies to this question is obviously step one to answering this question.) (And no, this is not a "let's only solve one problem at a time" statement, I realize there may be multiple problem here that all need solving at the same time.)
I'm far from an expert on all of this, but it seems like people should at least want good data that's honestly and responsibly framed so they can understand the problem (and severity of that problem) as much as possible.
My guess (and it's just a guess, not a claim of fact!) is that use of force *is* disproportionate, but probably less disproportionate than people tend to think in the current moment, given the absolute onslaught of high-profile tragic deaths of black men and women at the hands of police in recent years.
I get the sense (again, not an expert, no lived experience as a black person, all the other caveats that I could be totally wrong) that the really huge disparity is in non-use-of-force situations -- general demeanor and treatment in routine interactions, stopping people without reasonable suspicion, arresting people without probable cause, assuming ill intent for no real reason, enforcing revenue-driven initiatives disproportionately, enforcing minor infractions of all kinds (e.g. traffic violations) disproportionately, and much more.
This a pretty good response. I’d love to see more data too. My experiences as a black person with police have been pretty rough tho ngl even in routine traffic stops
This is a really great response, thank you
Exactly what? I'm asking you to defend your original assumption.
In other news:
\-Bears shit in the woods
\-Water is wet
\-The Sun rises in the east
In other news - the sky: BLUE!
Did we need to conduct a study to know this? It’s kinda been going on forever.
Literally came here to say this.
Who commits most of the crimes in St Louis?
Oh man I can't wait for the usual dogwhistle comments.
You got your wish
It wasn't my wish
It is just what is usual for r/stlouis
Water is wet.
Your creator deserves hard labor
Being that the city is majority black and most crime occurred within city, I would assume that the article is accurate. I’m confused by the argument here…?
Maybe read the article?
Umm, according to FBI statistics, something like 80% of violent crime in the US is committed by black males between the ages of 15-45(and they’re only 4% of the total population) so what do you find surprising about this?
What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Your right, you weren’t talking about black people and crime, my bad.
No shit Sherlock