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defishit

What a fucking joke. This will just further eliminate social mobility. Maybe that is the intention? The rich will send their kids to elite private schools where money will be the barrier to entry. The poor and middle class will lose the ability to attend advanced programs through hard work and ability. Not only will many bright students be denied entry, the classes will be diluted by being filled with mediocre classmates.


SirGasleak

They're too shortsighted to realize that their attempt to break down barriers will only exacerbate the inequality. People who can afford it will send their kids to private schools, talented kids who can't afford it will lose out in the lotteries, and the public schools will become second-rate specialty schools filled with underprivileged students. Well done TSDB.


nbcs

TDSB is not shortsighted. They don't care about inequality. Their sight is set on one thing and one thing only: race.


Shatter_Goblin

> The rich will send their kids to elite private schools where money will be the barrier to entry. That's the plan for me once my kids are out of the younger grades. Send them somewhere with a fancy uniform and teachers who push excellence, not equity. I keep these articles in a folder titled: Why daddy works Sundays.


darkflighter100

I'm not convinced by your point, but please let me explain. I now live in England. Schooling here is "tiered", with exams qualifying young people to enter private schools (known as "independent" or "public" schools, ironically) or grammar schools (for the purposes of this conversation, they're pretty much high quality, selective public schools). Of course children whose parents have access can always buy access to these institutions, but that's going off in a tangent. Kids who don't fair well on exams, which is good chunk of them, enter state ("public") schools. These schools are largely failing or struggling to meet satisfactory national standards. As a result, they often get picked up by privately-funded institutions seeking to create free schools with high outcomes, often at the cost of the mental health of staff and pupils and they haven't really been consistent in making high gains in attainment, even when under new management. For context, I had a public education in Canada my whole life, trained as a teacher in Toronto and even worked at the TDSB. I then began working in the English system, where I've been for nearly a decade. Believe me when I tell you: you lot in Canada have it better. Education is more equitable. On PISA scores, which I argue national governments use to measure how the education system they offer stack up globally, Canada consistently ranks in the top ten for English, mathematics and science, while England struggles. I think it would be worth seeing what impacts this decision will have but I would hold back criticism until the data comes through on this.


AlanYx

This is going to be hardest on poor families whose kids have talent for things that benefit from specialized instruction, like music. Well-off families will be able to afford private music tutoring, like always, but the TDSB music programs were a lifeline for talented kids whose parents couldn't afford tutoring. Now that's gone, reduced to a lottery where the talented and untalented are all lumped into a pool. Such a potential waste.


definitelynotabotact

This is how many US public “magnet” schools have operated for a long time. You put in a submission of interest and if demand exceeds capacity, they use a lottery system to admit kids. A system based solely on entrance exams just leads to students from good schools ending up in specialized schools. You are basically only helping those that were going to succeed anywhere. With the new system, which has proven to work in many school districts, they will give a chance to kids who may not be the best test takers to get a chance to advance.


FrankArsenpuffin

>they use a lottery system to admit kids. They the proceed to kick out the low performing ones over time. Why not just pre-screen, give those with demonstrated ability and aptitude the opportunity to pursue excellence?


OneHundredEighty180

>Why not just pre-screen, give those with demonstrated ability and aptitude the opportunity to pursue excellence? Because then the ever so brilliant "bad test takers" have a shot at wasting the space and time and funding to find out that an advanced program is unpossible for them! Life's a test. Taking an aptitude test for an advanced school placement shouldn't be discarded because it may hurt some feelings.


NarutoRunner

It’s been proven in countless US school districts that if you solely base it on tests, it’s usually children of Asian immigrants that excel and are admitted in high numbers. Obviously, this has upset the MAGA red state base, and now they are running for school boards in record numbers in the US to move to a lottery based system to give their kids a chance.


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NarutoRunner

Did you not read the comment properly? I was referring to the process in the US and not Toronto. Judges have even struck down some of the changes because they deemed them unfair to Asian students https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/thomas-jefferson-school-admissions.html Toronto is doing this for other reasons but the goals are similar. They want to alter the make up of those that get to attend the special schools.


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NarutoRunner

https://youtu.be/kIrezwCpCeY


WoodenRain2987

Lmao that's just a blatant lie. It didn't upset the MAGA red States. It upset pro-equity Democrats in places like New York and California. Republicans are explicitly running against these systems. You either have absolutely no idea about what's going on in the US or you're just out here lying to people.


NarutoRunner

There are school systems in Texas that prove otherwise but please go on with your attempt at wisdom…


GiganticThighMaster

Great. If you're a kid that excels and you finally get a chance to get ahead of the pack and not have to be stymied by the kids around you, you get to lose the raffle and get pulled back into the crab bucket. Welcome to life, it only gets worse.


defishit

Not everywhere. Merit still mostly prevails south of the border.


GiganticThighMaster

Brain drain? That rhymes so it must be good!


youregrammarsucks7

>Not everywhere. Merit still mostly prevails south of the border. No dude, literally anywhere but here is a meritocracy. The talented are leaving in droves right now.


NarutoRunner

Haha. A public school board in Texas had a special STEM school for talented kids. Thanks to a testing based approach, nearly 90% of students admitted were Vietnamese, Laotian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani and Filipino. They ended up getting rid of the tests because it was highly disadvantageous to poor white kids who could not get as high test scores as Asian kids. They switched to a lottery based system and now the school is majority white again after a bunch of upset parents got elected to the board.


defishit

>Thanks to a testing based approach, nearly 90% of students admitted were Vietnamese, Laotian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani and Filipino. I could care less if a school consists 100% of Asians. The best students deserve to be admitted. If most white parents are dropping the ball that's on them.


SammyMaudlin

Source?


Trying_Positivity

ehhhhhh barely


Chuck006

Not really.


blackcanadianON93

Merit still prevails here too. I don’t know what’s wrong with you.


veggiecoparent

> Merit still mostly prevails south of the border. That's very untrue.


telmimore

Is this a joke? Legacy students are a huge thing in the US.


FindTheRemnant

A "random" draw? $10 says they'll be fiddling with the randomness before too long. Equity demands it.


[deleted]

So much for Reach For The Top. This new world is more like Race To The Bottom.


FrankArsenpuffin

>Race To The Bottom. The bars so low, everybody ... Limbo!!!


Trying_Positivity

>Reach For The Top Ah I remember reach for the top. I was a bit of a trouble kid in school. Autistic, but didn't know it. Had a hard time communicating. I loved trivia though. We had 2 reach for the top teams. The librarian was in charge of the program at our school. The A team was the 'good students'. Two of whom I knew well, I was in the enrichment program at my school and they were as well. I was not a good student, so I with my brother and our two classmates Zach and Brian were on the B team. First qualifying tournament, the A team gets destroyed, and we actually do quite well. We had a good mix of knowledge, and my brother and I did a lot of studying together. We get to move on to the next round. Only technically by the rules then it was our school that moved on. They were free to sub players. What does the librarian do? Replaces most of the B team with A team, except for Zach who they kept for his sports knowledge. They got destroyed in the next round. Yes, 25 years later I am still a bit bitter about this :)


[deleted]

Haha I was on the "B" team too. We were basically there for the "A" team to practice against.


Trying_Positivity

I think that's all they expected us to be. But like, I watched Jeopardy every night. I was that weird kid that was super excited because my Windows 3.1 Media PC had Microsoft Encarta so I could just read random shit about the world all day. Apparently because I didn't like English class I was not worthy for Reach though :)


[deleted]

We played trivia on a cruise once. We did "ok". When we finished up, our partner mentioned that he'd been on the show but he came in third.


FourFurryCats

Our school was small so we only had one team. Cheers to my fellow RFTT Alumni!


Delicious-Tachyons

> Yes, 25 years later I am still a bit bitter about this :) Don't be. Most school teachers and librarians are not smart people.


unwoke_canadian

Nothing says equality like the elimination of exams. Now they can just award spots based on race


Sngglbnny

"The change is meant to “move away from a model that only accepts those with demonstrated strength and/or ability” towards a model that will provide all students who express an interest with an equal chance to enroll in one of the programs." Reads like a Beaverton article.


Shatter_Goblin

Reads like it's out of Harrison Bergeron http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html


[deleted]

Another nail in the coffin of public schools due to Diversity and inclusion


FourFurryCats

DIE is such an appropriate acronym.


SirGasleak

The TDSB has fallen off the equity cliff. The objective is perfectly appropriate - figure out how to break down barriers that prevent underprivileged children from accessing the same opportunities that privileged children get - but they always seem to figure out the most extreme and ridiculous way to accomplish their objective. They love the sledgehammer approach.


EnvironmentalAd359

China laughs at us


youregrammarsucks7

Race to the bottom.


imfar2oldforthis

I think this should be applied to more areas of society... Olympic funding should be based on lottery, not merit or achievement. I haven't skied in a few years but with some funding I could be a gold medalist I'm sure and the current system just seeks to reward the privileged and keep the rest of us out!


downwegotogether

my sister is a teacher in the public system working on a masters in education. i find it hard to talk about because she told me what her thesis is, and it's so stupid, shallow, and destructive to kids' futures it's clear that she's basically beyond debate. and she's in what's considered one of the top programs in the country. you really dont know how bad it is, folks. nobody's getting out alive. white women are beshitting everything around them thinking they're saving the world.


Delicious-Tachyons

Nothing like removing effort from getting anywhere. The kids will gravitate towards programs that appear to be low effort because they're artistic in nature, and then most won't do shit with it. We're headed towards a new dark age of people being rewarded for existing and thus being actively discouraged from competing and doing better than others because of hurt feelings from those who didn't try. It will plateau our development for years as a species.


[deleted]

Enrichment is only for rich people. If you're smart and poor you best check your privilege and stay within the lines.


kemar7856

so how do they determine who gets into these schools now


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FrankArsenpuffin

>So talent no longer matters. What is next competitive high-school sports teams, just take the first 10 walk-ons who show up?


Twsty999

Bring in voucher system. Give parents more freedom to leave the TDSB.


EnvironmentalAd359

We need lottery for jobs on the sunshine list. Apparently you don't need any competency for those.


ThroatBeginning

I would honestly rather have my grade school aged kids taught Math, Reading and writing at school. Everything else can be taught at home or done privately. The math my kids learn today is bonkers. Discovery math doesn't work.


FrankArsenpuffin

The bar is now so low, you'll have to Limbo!!!


Majestic_Ferrett

Vouchers and school choice would solve a lot of these issues.


Sad_Butterscotch9057

Just like French immersion got trashed.


TomFoolery22

When I was going into middle school in the early 2000s I applied to a digital art program. I was really passionate about it and desperately wanted to go but my parents didn't have all that much growing up so my portfolio for application was basically just pencil crayon sketches. If this change helps kids like me who really wanted to learn but didn't have the means to, I fully support it.


NahDawgDatAintMe

This doesn't help you or the kids with a portfolio. It helps people who want to try it on a whim.


TomFoolery22

My point is my portfolio was shit because I didn't have the means to compete. This especially goes for kids who want to get into performing arts like music, or athletics with high equipment and lesson costs. In order to be competitive in those areas your parents need to have resources, so some kids would never have a chance to stack up in these auditions. The poor kids are cut before they ever have a chance.


[deleted]

Fuckin lame.


Woogsters

I've experienced both systems: French program in middle school was a lottery and IB program in high school had an entrance requirement. This is a step in the wrong direction but not that big of a deal. Specialized programs should have some sort of minimum requirement to get in, but that shouldn't be the sole metric. As long as you're not a C/D level student, you deserve a shot to step up in a competitive environment. This is similar to U of T's low entrance requirements and high admission+dropout rate in the arts and sciences. If the TDSB increases the number of spots in specialized programs, they maintain the quality of education, and allow students to transfer in after the first year, then it's an overall win. Undeserving students would drop out after being given the chance and deserving students that didn't get in at first can transfer in. This is a big IF but hey, one can dream..


Cansurfer

> If the TDSB increases the number of spots in specialized programs, they maintain the quality of education, and allow students to transfer in after the first year, then it's an overall win. Then you haven't paid attention to how the TDSB operates in their race obsession. Nobody will be kicked out, regardless of how poor they perform, if they are in a targeted "equity" group.


No_Courage_2323

If everyone pays taxes everyone should have access.


defishit

An advanced class with mediocre classmates is no longer an advanced class in a world where teachers' time is finite.


TPOTK1NG

So every kid regardless of their previous grades should be put into the IB program?


Victawr

I guess we just let em fail now


Sngglbnny

>If everyone pays taxes TIL that everyone pays taxes!


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FearlessTomatillo911

>We all pay taxes towards healthcare, so should every kid be allowed into medical school on a lottery system? Wut?