This community thinks trans women are the only type of "authentic" trans person
By - CultureTroll
There's sort of a lot going on with this post, but I do agree with the core point that it's frustrating when people blame "trenders" instead of the bigots themselves. Even if they're actually cis, their behavior is innocuous on its own. They want to deconstruct gender roles/expression which is perfectly fine. That isn't mutually exclusive with taking the biochemical realities of gender dysphoria seriously.
It's only an issue when bigoted people in power use it to their advantage. It isn't "trender's" fault if their innocuous behavior gets twisted around and used as a cudgel by assholes.
This is exactly what conservative bigots want too. They'll point to the "deconstruct the binary / don't need dysphoria" people like "oh if gender is so important then why are you acting like it isn't important???"
Then certain people blame trenders for being politically disadvantageous in that way. But it isn't their fault if they're not being politically pragmatic. They're just doing their thing. Again, blame the freakin bigots. Don't blame trenders because bigots twist their shit around in unfair ways (not directing this at you OP).
This reminds me A LOT of how gay and lesbian communities have turned on bisexual people before. Bad actors were using them as a cudgel against them, and some LG people would turn around and shit on bisexuals just for being politically disadvantageous.
this is an interesting perspective because I feel like the only people truly concerned with "trenders" are trans men (who obviously think they are authentic or they wouldn't be complaining about authenticity)
and trans women have their own thing going on with accusing members of their community as being autogynephiles (which a lot of the time has an implication of "not being real", which is also why trans women who were expected not to pass and live heterosexual lives after treatment were totally blocked from medical care for most of history).
I know you are upset and that is understandable but I do think it's more complicated in general and you're describing a niche issue in the trans male community like it applies everywhere
Yeah, I agree. When I’ve been called a trender, it’s been by other trans men almost 100% of the time. That or it’s from cis people which is absolutely bizarre. Trans women have never said anything like that to me
Agreed. Everything is punctuated with "especially trans women" even though, for instance, trans men experience equal levels of violence and even more violence in certain categories like domestic and sexual. People either don't know or they argue against it as if it's not true. AFAB trans people too often suffer in silence because the community is so heavily focused on trans women that trans spaces often aren't welcoming to trans AFABs.
I've had more than one trans woman threaten to rape me because they were losing an argument, and that only happened because I'm afab. They treat us like women because they see us as women.
>I've had more than one trans woman threaten to rape me because they were losing an argument, and that only happened because I'm afab. They treat us like women because they see us as women.
I'm sorry this happened to you, but why would they see you as women? Could it be that these trans women you're talking about are in fact trenders themselves?
Because they're transphobic idk? Lol they were making crude sexual remarks at me too, the same shit cis men pull with AFAB people. It was gross.
I don't understand why trans women would show typical toxic masculine behaviour if they're truly women.
I've met some toxic ass cis women. It's a rare trait, but it doesn't make them not women
Being female doesn't mean you can't participate in toxic masculinity. Being trans and female doesn't mean you haven't internalized an entire lifetime as a male-presenting person.
I feel like it's a hard thing to unlearn.
Personally I can't relate. I've never been socialized as a man, I've always known I'm a girl/woman deep down. I've always felt alienated around guys, as if they're another species. Even if I do vibe with one, I feel like we're not the same gender. You know what I mean? Maybe this is just my experience, but I don't understand how some trans women have been socialized as toxic men?
The same way some trans men have been socialized as women. Not all of us knew at an early age, you know? I always thought I just had poor self esteem lol
I'd go farther than that. Just because someone is aware they're not being gendered correctly by others doesn't mean the insistences that come from others can't still be getting internalized as a personal thing in some fashion.
\-edited for word addition re; clarity.
Could you explain what you mean?
Eh, I can try. I'm not sure english has the proper sentence structure for it tho - or perhaps I'm missing words.
I internalized that my junk wasn't correct as it relates to femininity or girls/women as a class. I managed something similar with other gendered social messages.
When I was, oh, fifteen or sixteen I was told by my friend's father (a neighbor) that 'more than a handful is a waste' - I was on the computer, he walked up, uttered a statement and sauntered away. He said that cuz I'd considerably more than a handful and you prolly know the drill about large tits - doesn't matter what you wear, they're often considered an inappropriate sexual display. He was far from the only person (women and men) to comment in my teenage/early adult years. Even though I never wanted that kind've chest (I realized the trans thing right before puberty hit) I internalized other things about its structure as, call it 'dislikable', totally separate from any personally-gendered feelings. I meant to tie in the physicality messages received with overall gendered expectations (as far as they corresponded to my particular physical reality, but then I realized that might make it more complicated to understand and I ain't the clearest in the first place, so)
Tldr - I suppose what's really important (glancing back) seems to be the repetition of actions received for what I have to unlearn. I'm not sure if I've managed to exricate an adjacent conversation m'having with myself from this missive, sorry. And it isn't even all relearning - how people interpret an answer I've given to a changes depending on I'm visibly trans or read as female. Identical words even
Actually no, according to a study hate violence and physical violence are almost equal between the two. :)
Amongst K-12 respondents, Transgender
women (38%) were more likely to have been
physically attacked than transgender men (20%)
and non-binary people (16%) (p 133).
Figure 15.12 on pg 204 showed that for physical attacks in public by strangers in the past year, trans women of every racial category reported higher than average levels compared with all trans respondents, meaning they've had to have had the highest rates.
FORGE, the nonprofit I direct policy and programs for, conducted a national study in 2011 that was approved by the Morehouse College School of Medicine Institutional Review Board and funded by the Office for Victims of Crime. Our survery was answered by 1,005 trans people. That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be victims of childhood sexual assault, adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).
The only category in which trans women were more likely to be victimized was by hate violence, and even there the difference was small: 30 percent of trans women reported having experienced hate violence, compared to 29 percent of trans men.
Your stats are for K-12, mine is an actual random sample of trans people of all ages.
Is that study going to get published one of these days? It seems like that has been pending for some time.
You'd have to ask them, obviously.
> FORGE, the nonprofit I direct policy and programs for
Thought I was, but I clearly misunderstood. Pardon.
Whoops, that was supposed to have quotes. That's all me lol sorry.
Lol. No big!
lmao and there it is! Talking about the fact that trans men face equal violence is considered downplaying what trans women face.
It's all about trans women. All the time. Even when it's about trans men. You just proved my point.
Aww, poor baby doesn't understand that saying trans men experience more violence than you thought doesn't take anything away from trans women.
Trans women do face more non-sexual hate-crime related violence, but sexual assault is a form of "physical violence" so it's not accurate to say they face more "physical violence". I would also argue that a lot of sexual assault should count as a hate crime, corrective rape for example.
But your core point is right. Trans women and men face very similar rates of violence. Trans women face more sexual violence than cis men and cis women too, so it's just a huge issue all around
Yeah I think at that point it's semantics, of course rape is physical violence too but when people use the term "physical violence" it tends to be understood to be the kind of violence where you're having your ass kicked.
People just seem to think that AFABs have it so much easier in general and it's infuriating, especially when people act like we have it miles better than AMABs
Also, am I the only one who finds the whole AFAB enby hate thing has really misogynistic or just bigoted in general undertones? Nonbinary people aren't women ofc but people who make posts like the one you're referring to think that and thus apply sexist logic to them. Stuff like, "they're just trying to worm themselves in so they can be cool and trendy" or "they don't even understand what they're talking about, clearly they're having an identity crisis" has been used against all minority groups and a lot of times it's still used against women. It's probably a bit of a reach but whatever just felt like throwing that out there
I have personally met many more non-dysphoric AMABs than AFABs, but my anecdotes aren't actual evidence. I don't even see the point in separating the "fake" AMABs and AFABs because sex is irrelevant in the conversation. If a cis person misunderstands what being trans means, the core problem is education, not their sex. And that poster was talking about people who go on puberty blockers, so they all clearly actually have dysphoria, just not enough to "count as real trans" to him.
It’s misogynist at its core because it views AFAB folks as always women and thus unable to make their own choices, which is something that’s historically been lobbied at trans men for years too.
Yep. But when you try to bring up how misogyny affects a lot of transphobia towards trans men you get accused of misgendering yourself lol.
Nobody seems to understand that misogyny can affect more than women. Hatred of femininity or displaying of feminine traits is misogyny, regardless of who displays those traits. Violence towards amab folks for being feminine is an extension of misogyny. Thus trans men can be victimized by misogyny and not misgender themselves. But people would rather split hairs and engage in mental gymnastics than acknowledge trans men can face oppression.
Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at, you worded it so much better than I did
Conservatives aren’t dumb they’re duplicitous. Don’t confuse the two. As misogynistic as conservatism it relies heavily on women. Where women are effectively viewed as livestock, breeders of the next generation of conservatives and rewards for “good conservative men”
This is why they are against abortion, feminism, women in the the workplace, maternity pay and subsides childcare.
Its an ideology the never accounted for daughters who grow up to think “ No thanks I don’t think this is for me”
Yeah. I'm gonna need to see a source for "mtf's outnumber ftm's 7 to one".
Otherwise I'm gonna call bullshit. It's actually pretty close to 50/50 I'm pretty sure.
Do mtf's get the most hate and attention? Yes. Doesn't mean the statistics match up with that.
I think OP is speaking historically, not from stats taken over the last 10 years. Lots of other cultures have third gender subculture that only recognize trans women, it’s possible that historically the rate of trans women treated or recognized vs trans men is highly skewed.
There's this thing called "google" that lets you ask a question like "number of trans men vs trans women over time" and then gives you lots of relavent information on your question. I would really recommend trying it the next time you want to check if something someone says is true before just straight up accusing them of lying
But your source backs up the 50/50 ratio? So the commenter is right.
It says the number of trans men drastically increased, which indicates a severe imbalance beforehand.
We get told all the time that there are more MTFs than FTMs and that’s why FTMs get ignored and we rebut with the claim that numbers are equal in current years. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, historically more trans women have been treated and recognized than trans men likely because of privilege they had before transitioning that put them in a position to access transition.
Hardly? Have you seen how strictly women are policed in terms of expression? Trans women complain about beauty standards all the time. Guess what, those standards apply to trans men before transition. Most trans men historically have just been labeled as misguided women and misgendered after death. So don’t argue that it’s the scrutiny that led to more trans women being recognized and not the massive lack of privilege afab folks have had for millennia preventing them from accessing transition or expressing non traditional gender presentation. Transmisogyny is not a more widespread issue than just misogyny ffs.
>Trans women complain about beauty standards all the time
Beauty standards and how socially accepted it is to engage in gender non-conformity aren't the same thing and it is far, far more socially acceptable for a woman to be a tomboy than it is for a man to be anything remotely feminine.
Trans men aren’t “tomboys”. Even pretransition, which I know is what you mean. It’s not about being sporty and climbing trees with a slingshot in your back pocket. It’s about stating your body is wrong and where is your penis / full beard / baritone voice. It’s about using anything you can find to make your chest flat, even if it’s injuring you. It’s about corrective rape and violence. And shit, just because something happened pretransition does not mean it doesn’t matter. It causes trauma that doesn’t just go away magically if someone goes on T.
I cited beauty standards as an example of the misogynist policing women and pre transition trans men are subject to. It's exhausting to see the misogyny targeting trans men (and cis women) and policing them before transition consistently ignored in lieu of transmisogyny.
If it's so acceptable for women to just engage in gender non conformity, why is corrective rape a very real and serious problem facing trans men and GNC women? Trans men face higher rates of sexual assault and domestic violence than even trans women. Women are consistently [fired for being "ambitious"](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizelting/2017/04/24/the-high-cost-of-ambition-why-women-are-held-back-for-thinking-big/?sh=35a665a1ee6d) and bucking gender trends. Even in 2021 traditional gender roles are being enforced on [girls in schools.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-school-scraps-chivalry-assignment-had-girls-obey-any-reasonable-n1259730) And let's not forget targeted attacks on female figures criticizing them for unfeminine appearances, from women like AOC to even Michelle Obama.
Just because it's socially acceptable for a woman to wear pants does not mean it's ok for a woman to wear pants and declare that she's not a woman, or even just not a feminine woman. Trans women consistently ignore this and act as if the policing of women only applies to trans women and frankly it's a double standard that is exhausting, wrong, and needs to be corrected.
> why is corrective rape a very real and serious problem facing trans men and GNC women? Trans men face higher rates of sexual assault and domestic violence than even trans women
These statistics make no distinction between assault pre transition and assault post-transition, so there's no evidence that it's a direct result of any gender non-conformity. Queer men have twice the hate crime rates queer women do, and hate crimes, by definition, can only happen to you if it's apparent you're of a minority status.
>women are consistently fired for being "ambitious" and bucking gender trends.
And men who express gender nonconformity are not hired in the first place. "Ambitious" women with a relatively masculine demeanor make up virtually all female politicians, whereas I can't name a single effeminate male politician who wears makeup, dresses, and doesn't wear suits.
>Trans women consistently ignore this and act as if the policing of women only applies to trans women and frankly it's a double standard that is exhausting, wrong, and needs to be corrected.
I never claimed any such thing, but people who were never men are constantly trying to tell others what the male experience is.
I mean, sure, go ahead and ignore that outside of maybe the last century women were so scrutinized and policed that they couldn’t even wear men’s clothes and would incur corporeal punishment if they did. Now women can wear pants so no woman ever faces any kind of violence or discrimination or results of thousands of years of sexism when she defies any kind of gender roles! Hooray there’s no more struggles anymore and women are 100% free to do as they choose!
Women face ridiculous amounts of policing and are subject to violence for deviating from gender norms even today. I have been a victim of such violence on more than one occasion. Get the fuck over it, gnc amab folks aren’t the only ones who are oppressed.
So then the increase in FTMs would mean there is now *more* scrutiny on masculine AFABs than there was in the past?
Clearly, I think this is wrong. No, it was not historically easier for women to go against sexism and patriarchy than men.
Females have been more policed than males for all of history. That's why there were less lesbians, that's why there were less FTMs. This is the same sexism that makes it hard for MTFs to be accepted as women. Only incels and MRAs disagree.
"Since 1990, there has been a steady increase in the percentage of FTM such that it is now equivalent to MTF."
I swear this sub has some of the densest people on earth lol
Without actual numbers, steady increase could mean it was 45% to 55% and that equalized. That's a big difference from a 7 to 1 ratio.
That's why you actually read the study if you want specific numbers...
I wouldn't make any assumption of the ratio.
As a trans woman I find it disgusting when I see trans men and enbies not being treated as our equals or being invalidated. I've often seen it in this particular sub because it's allowed to hate on other trans people here and invalidate them and claim that it's just "venting" or trying to have an "open-minded discussion" where open-mindedness is actually nowhere to be seen. On other subs tho, it's usually not allowed. This is why this sub is my least favorite sub. It allows transphobia to spread and enables transphobes under the pretext of free-speech.
I take part in group discussions, talking with real people who show their faces and where trans men, women, enbies and questioning people of all ages and ethnicities also take part. Here's what I learned: we all go through the same shit, but just from a different perspective. I love these group discussions and the people who participate because we try to understand and support each other. This is how the trans community should be as a whole. We should stick together and unite against transphobes who try to divide us whether they're cis or not.
Trans men, enbies, detrans people, neogender people, etc. are not the reason why anything bad is happening to trans women. Cis transphobes are the main issue as it has always been the case. They hate us all and will never change their mind. We can only hope that a younger more open-minded generation is going to replace the current one. We'll get rid of transphobes when they'll die of old age and be replaced by the next generation. Those of us who side with them are transphobes too.
Yea, I see people in the replies trying attach rising numbers of trans men a nb's to "trenders" which is just a dumb conservative talking point. Truth is trying to police trans identities to appease conservatives is and always will be a losing strategy.
Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed
I swear those posts in that sub are non-stop at the moment
I say transandrophobia rather than transmisandry... but I also say: Where is the lie?
I struggle here. Im a binary trans guy. I do not at all understand these people who loudly claim to be trans masc but aren't at all masculine. I'm not saying anything about pretransition guys or guys who can't present masc due to circumstances I'm talking about these trans masc identifying folk who basically only cut their hair short but continue to do everything else feminine and insisting on calling them he/him and they're trans masc. Dude, if you're masculine you shouldn't have to tell me I should be able to see it. I don't think it's productive to pretend these people don't exist and don't make it very hard for people who genuinely are trans masc.
I mean, a trans guy can still be a femboy. Their gender identity is still male, just feminine.
At that point isn't that also the same as being a tomboy? Being trans is fucking hard. I always tell people if you can be happy in a role that exists for your birth sex do that don't transition. Just doesn't make sense.
No, it's not the same. Tomboy's gender identity is still female. They're masculine women. FTM-femboy's gender identity is male. Those are literally polar opposites.
Femboys aren't exactly attempting to be the most masculine, but they aren't presenting as women, just as feminine men.
If you say so. I still don't understand. I'm not gonna bully anyone about it. Probably not gonna be friends or anything with them though. Being trans is hard if you like being feminine and you're AFAB dont transition that's the best advise I can give.
If you have dysphoria, you should transition. The difference between a feminine woman and feminine man is the body. Hrt can change that. I refuse to treat trans femboys differently than cis ones. They're the same thing. It's ok to specifically be a feminine trans man, because gender identity isn't gender expression or gender roles.
Call me transmed, but I still feel being trans is primarily about feeling wrong in your physical body. You can still feel that without feeling like you want to drink beer and wear cargo shorts. Isn't THAT what a tomboy is, be she cis or trans? Roles. Roles make a tomboy or femboy. Dysphoric bodies make a trans individual seek physical transition.
Would you deny the “manhood” of cis femboys? No. If you do, that’s stupid because gender identity doesn’t come with a list of required personality traits. So why the double standard for trans people? You aren’t denying the identity of cis women who are tomboys either, why? Let’s not put toxic masculinity on people who identify as transmasc to “prove” they’re trans.
Well, I don't treat cis femboys the same as I treat masculine men. I treat trans femboys like them, their gender presentation implies they don't want to be treated as tough they're soft and fine if that's what they want but that's not the same as a masculine man and as someone who wants to be identified as a man and as a masculine person I show people that in my presentation. Sure trans men don't owe anyone masculinity... Unless they wanted to be treated as masculine.
Not every trans person can pass. Maybe it makes it a little harder for other trans people, but it's not harder than having to live as a non-passing person in a transphobic world.
But I'm not talking about people who don't pass. I'm talking about people who don't present masculine calling themselves trans masc. Like what? You can't claim to be trans masculine if you aren't masculine (again talking about people who are fully out as "trans masc" not those who can't transition socially)
For an AFAB, presenting masculine is putting on pants and short hair. FTMs can still unfortunately look just like lesbians or tomboys. I was years on T and not passing. There's no "sure signs" for FTMs like lipstick and a dress are for MTFs
True. Again not talking about passing talking about masc presentation. As in, if you want to be treated masc maybe dont dye your hair bright pink and wear makeup
You're claims about "the past" aren't even remotely accurate. The rapid increase in the number of trans people\* happened way, way after women became part of the workforce and the women's lib movement. As an example Lesbians were a group with their own culture even pre-Stonewall (lots of homophobia to deal with though), it wasn't "marry a man or starve" situation. There were trans men in the past, and while certainly the focus on SRS for trans men historically wasn't prioritized as much, it's been an option since the 1940s and Harry Benjamin of "Harry Benjamin scale" fame/infamy did treat trans men too.
There are certainly some reasons why trans men are going up in larger numbers (like visibility issues), but it wasn't because they weren't able to (as a group).
\*numbers of all groups have increased a lot in the last decade honestly it's not just a single group
I agree that the claims of the past are exaggerated by OP but they're not entirely off. People who are perceived as women - including trans men pre-transition - to this day make less money on average, both due to being pressured to go into fields with lower pay ("female jobs") as well as plain sexism (even after adjusting for factors like parental leave and personal choices, those perceived as women still tend to make a bit less money for the same work than those perceived as men). Not to mention the social pressure to not go work at all if you were assigned female.
If a straight or bi trans man did end up in lesbian communities first - if they were anything like they are today, I'd imagine a lot of (understandable) hate for men and male atonomy going around there. This would make any trans man in such a community feel bad about wanting to have that anatomy and hence try to supress his feelings and only be butch instead to not be expelled from this community. It's slowly changing now, but I'm assuming it was much worse just a few decades ago.
Furthermore, people perceived as women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and anxiety rather than other illnesses, and their physical pain is taken less seriously by doctors. Now I know this is maybe too much of a stretch, but I could imagine doctors being less willing to believe someone they perceive as a woman when they say they have gender dysphoria than when someone they perceive as a man say that. Maybe doctors were more likely to diagnose those trans men with something else than with trans women, but again this is pure speculation on my side.
Doctors totally are less likely to believe women you're totally right about that. And correct about everything else got that matter.
My disagreement with the OP isn't that sexism doesn't effect trans men, because it totally does. It's more the way it's being framed, both historically and with a few iffily emphasized things. Like "trans women at least got to go into sex work, but we starved". As if sex is isn't dangerous and doubly so for trans people, and we'll as mentioned above it wasn't true that you would starve because you wouldn't marry a man. (it's all in the framing)
Is that from a specific source, or just what you feel like you've seen online?
yeah i don’t understand why these posts refuse to acknowledge that trenders do exist. i’m so sick of hearing how they don’t have any impact on our community when literally my parents won’t accept me because their idea of being trans is a trender.
my parents too and a plethora of other older folks. Many think we're just looking for attention
but it’s not just my parents. it’s a branch of transphobia that needs to be addressed.
It could, perhaps be because all the people highlighted as trenders by dickheads like Blair White and Kalvin Garrah were actually trans. Maybe there are people pretending to be trans, but I can't imagine it being a statistically significant number.
depends on what your definition of actually trans is i guess
Trenders do exist, but if you have to insist on doubting the validity of one group, doubt the validity of NBs. Trans men are literally just trying to get medical care and be accepted.
Gee, thanks. “Hey, don’t shit on trans men. Here’s another group of people we can throw under the bus instead!”
yeah Im in no way trying to lump trans men with trenders, hence how I said that trenders end up affecting them more. Sorry if it wasn't more clear.
I honestly agree with your point. I think this double standard is a form of cissexist misogyny, especially with TeenVogue referring to their (underage) target demographic as “people with v*g*nas” and featuring trans MEN but not trans women in one issue. Also it’s ok for a trans woman to lose her male privilege, but it’s not ok for a trans man to gain male privilege, because transgender people are an oppressed group.
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>A female got a husband or they starved to death
go outside lmao
equality pay act : 1963
first trans clinic : 1965
so oppressed! only if we could be privileged like those tranny hookers!
Yeah, the Johns Hopkins clinic was opened in the 60's and *only served binary trans women*
The past was sexist. Stop acting like an incel lol
>lie about a topic and call people fragile when they point out the reality
good gaslight there
i understand this but also saying that trenders of both genders, you see AFAB and AMAB trenders but it's mostly AFAB in my opinion because young mentally ill girls think it will help their problems instead of getting professional help.
Ah yes, transmisandry: the other side of the coin of misogyny