T O P

Ultra Conservative trans women and TERFy trans men are equally annoying

Ultra Conservative trans women and TERFy trans men are equally annoying

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GingerAndTime

>90% of conservative trans women are over age 40, haven't exactly been "genetically gifted" in the passing department, and lived a huge chunk of their lives in hyper masculine spaces. Eh? I'm absolutely not a fan of that lot but I don't think that's quite true? Like, there's plenty of more-or-less pretty young trans women who wanna prove that they're "not one of those SJWs" or whatever such thing.


HadayatG

That's fair. You're definitely right that there is a cohort of "fuck you I got mine" passing trans women who also have very conservative views. On this sub, imho the ultra conservative trans woman crowd does seem to skew older but there are definitely a lot of Blair White knock offs especially on social media/YT.


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snowsoracle

Yeah, it doesn't really have much to do with passing most of the time i know several shitty stealth trans women who turn and burn any other trans people they were around before. Exclusionary trans people usually have a level of bitterness from their personal struggles, and at least a little self-hatred because of that.


HadayatG

Lol are you honestly going to try to argue that the first paragraph doesn't fit you to a T ? Where's the lie ?


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HadayatG

You consistently tell passing trans men they look like butch lesbians, you try to tell trans men that anyone willing to date them is a chaser, you CONSTANTLY spam this sub with anti-trans woman skreed. Then you get banned and try to act all innocent and put on this bullshit helpless act. Changing your username whenever you inevitably get banned doesn't do shit. Literally nobody buys it. You are a literal caricature of the first paragraph.


pk-600-c

Yeah it's overlardlard whatever his name was. He's always getting new names


low-tide

What also bothers me though is the falling-over-each-other of some trans men to reiterate again and again how they’ve never been sexually harassed so they could not possibly have any idea what women go through so they are actually *the most* removed from womanhood. Like, if you can’t say “I don’t feel I was socialised female” without saying “If you experienced sexual harassment/assault pre transition you’re probably less trans than me”, then you can’t be surprised if the discussion turns toxic and aggressive. Which you’re absolutely not guilty of, OP, but these types of comments pop up in pretty much every thread about this subject.


AntifaStoleMyPenis

Because the "female socialization" trans guys have a really bad habit of being super aggro about claiming any trans guy who says he wasn't is lying or in denial. Like I don't think it's "you're less of a man if you were" so much as it's "you're insisting that I was because of your own insecurity/it makes you feel like less of a man" or something like that.


low-tide

I don’t know if by “female socialisation trans guy” you mean me, but me saying that many trans men (including myself) have experienced some form of sexual harassment or violence isn’t me saying “trans men are socialised female”. I can roll my eyes at those who feel the need to brag at every opportunity about how much they never experience “””fEmaLE”””-specific violence without taking part in some extremely online, extremely polarised debate.


AntifaStoleMyPenis

>I don’t know if by “female socialisation trans guy” you mean me I don't. I mean some trans guys here will full-on say they were "socialized female" and when other trans guys say "I was not female socialized" or "I don't really relate to or understand women's experiences," they will claim that those other trans guys are lying or in denial.


pk-600-c

Exactly that.


Adorable_Yak4100

48 yo transgender woman is glad you’re wrong about me. However, I am a bit jealous of girls who get to start young. I was abused for even suggesting that I was a girl but I’m glad that others don’t necessarily experience the transphobia from the people closest to them.


[deleted]

Actually most of the really bitter transwomen here are well under 40. Usually the ones here are 19-25. Anyone older especially over 40, I've found to be very cool.


SouthernYoghurt9

Same. Most of the bitter trans people I know are wayyy on the young side. I have never met an older trans person who was like that. At the worst, they are a little out of touch on non-binary people but willing to learn


[deleted]

Yeah, they have all been extremely friendly... It's funny because the people on the younger side seem to be way more bitter, even if they start at 19 or a little bit older. I'm just confused by that particular generalization I guess.


[deleted]

Lowkey, old conservative trans women have been some of the most sexist people I have ever met. I had one as my therapist 4 years ago (they were genderfluid back then) and they refused to write me a letter for HRT because my personality wasn't over the top girly, even after being my therapist for 8 fucking months meeting weekly. And they fucking kept stringing me along telling me they would write the letter "soon". Thank god for informed consent. Maybe they wanted me to turn into a hon like them, but man people like that piss me off.


spvrke

That therapist sounds like a scam, I hope you weren't paying out of pocket for that bullshit


[deleted]

It was out of pocket :/


33ducks

I don’t think it’s a passing-as-cis thing but I agree it stems from insecurity. There are, after all, plenty of trans men and women who are not passing and yet can live happy and fulfilling lives. There are plenty who are passing (kalvin, blaire) who have been destructive to our community. I also don’t think it’s a matter of how you frame your past. I definitely say I was “socialized female” because I grew up in a pretty gendered household. I am having difficulty interacting with cis men because there’s a lot to unlearn and relearn, everything from how to walk and talk to mow the lawn and basic plumbing. That doesn’t mean I’m pushing TERF rhetoric lmao When TERFs talk about “male socialization” unfortunately they aren’t talking about the pressure to conform, the inability to show emotions, being mocked for any connection to femininity that arguably most trans women have experienced art some point. Instead they make it a pervert rape thing. I think “socialization” would be a fine way to describe what many of us go through if it hadn’t been claimed by TERFs to push transphobia. edit: [here’s ](https://killmecoward.tumblr.com/post/654167506342346752) a tangentially related tumblr post on how TERFs use transandrophobia as a recruitment tactic that I think makes a lot of sense


AntifaStoleMyPenis

> I think “socialization” would be a fine way to describe what many of us go through if it hadn’t been claimed by TERFs to push transphobia. It's far from just being a TERF thing. In general there's a weird, creepy possessiveness people have towards trans women's pretransition experiences (trans guys' pretransition experiences too), as if ultimate ownership of our experiences doesn't lie with us and thus we're somehow not the best narrators of them, and if they happen to disagree with what "more oppressed" people think they are like, then you're just delusional. It's why even in trans spaces, discussing trans women and "male privilege" always turns into a shitshow, lol. Like I understand people getting defensive when you have some trans women going "hurr durr male privilege is a hoax, being a girl is so much easier." But I think in general what trans women really want is final control over their own narratives and the authority, the *right*, to define their own experiences... it's such a core tenet of most feminist epistemology and yet it's something a LOT of people have no problem yanking away from us the moment their own sense of self feels threatened.


33ducks

it’s definitely often used to yank trans women’s experiences from them. It doesn’t much matter the language that is used because they’re going to do it out of hate and fear regardless. The only reason I like “socialization” is because it implies, to me, something that is enforced on an individual by all of (or most of) their environment/society, regardless of how the individual feels or reacts to that outside pressure. Everyone should always be able to take control over how they describe and frame their own lives, however. I wouldn’t ever attribute it to someone else. It’s just easiest to explain for me personally, though honestly I think other language would be better since it does have that stigma. Definitely open to alternatives


AntifaStoleMyPenis

I dunno. All I'm saying is that as long as we're operating in that framework, people are going to feel entitled to control over our experiences because they think "male privilege/socialization" plus the Oppression Olympics means those experiences are supposed to serve their own agenda first and foremost.


SkyeWolfofDusk

Thank you, you covered what I wanted to say far better than I ever could have. And that Tumblr post is fantastic, thank you for linking it.


ACutleryChristmas

You experiencing female socialization and expressing that is fine. What is not fine, is making it a blanket statement on all trans men. Any cis woman who thinks I understand issues like catcalling or sexual harassment from personal experience is sorely mistaken. Up until I started talking to more women, I was one of those guys who thought it was over exaggerated and that it doesn't really happen.


The_6thCourier

For truth. After you start talking with the women in your life and listening to them, you hear the sheer volume of these stories and most of them are basically the same. I think at that point if you don't believe it you're either an ass or deep in your own ideological bias. Or both idk.


33ducks

for sure, that’s why I’m always careful to say “many of us” and not “all of us”. even among cis women it can mean incredibly different things


tradtrannysammy

>when you’re too socially conservative to kiss terf ass 😎


AntifaStoleMyPenis

[NO LIES DETECTED] But seriously, I agree. I imagine it's painful for someone like Caitlyn Jenner to have to look at what trans girls nowadays get to enjoy that she was denied, being closeted all those years, but there's some real Snow White Evil Queen BS going on in the way she tries to make things shittier for trans girls. Like if you're going to pretend like you actually think trans girls have an unfair advantage in sports rather than just being bitter about them being able to do it, then you better not be participating in women's golf tournaments yourself, lol.


pk-600-c

I assume it is pretty hard for them. Though it definitely doesn't make it a good thing to attack people who are having it better.


Marina_07

At the core of it they are really the same group. Both are conservative transphobes.


Legacy60

Wow perfectly stated


pk-600-c

The top part sounds like yogurt who said to another trans man in the older posts that he had female socialization even though the guy said no


smineminem-

Who tf is yogurt


GottaHideIt

someone people are obsessed with on this sub


Instaquwwn

This is more harrasment than anything that dude has ever done. You need to stop. This type of petty behavior is not ok


pk-600-c

He's in the replies rn. He also harrassed people on multiple posts idc if you view it as harassment when he does it often (well attack people for not agreeing with him even of they tell him he has no idea of how they grew up)


Instaquwwn

You are accusing another trans person of having an "unsuccessful physical transition" or whatever shit OP said to attack FTMs. I honestly don't care why because you are just transphobic period. I think you're just making shit up about yogurt too because you say you've seen him harassing all these people but didn't link a single example! I haven't seen him do that! All I've seen is you pick out FTMs you don't like and call them TERFs, or failed transitioners. I'm reading his replies right now, and honestly he should be calling you some choice words for your childish behavior and he's still trying to be civil about it. Posting "lmfaooo" doesn't make your transphobia cute. I'm reporting you and you deserve a ban for this disgusting behavior


pk-600-c

Nah I don't I was referring to him harassing trans men and trans women. Never saw what he looks like


pk-600-c

You want a link to the post I'm referring to? [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/n0mzk1/am_i_the_only_ftm_that_never_experienced_female/gw7tcfl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) It's all over the post but that is the interaction with the op. This comment prob is going to get locked because that's what always happens whenever you post someone's old comments


GottaHideIt

It's wild how often people mention him in the comments. Grade 7 shit.


clydeishomosexual

I hate that person lmao


[deleted]

Is this really what we're doing today?


clydeishomosexual

Have you seen half the shit that person says


[deleted]

Yes but like......Just bad mouthing people in public? like that's what we've devolved into? "you're stupid" "no you're stupid".


clydeishomosexual

Listen I don't have anything to hide. Yogurt talks shit about trans men in public too. This is honest transgender for a reason.


pk-600-c

Well at least I'm not doing it in his back 🙃 Plus he goes after trans men who say they haven't been socialized as females then goes after trans girls saying they are feminized as males etc. He wild


CultureTroll

Talking shit about someone without tagging their username is 100% going behind someone's back


pk-600-c

He literally replied and he's on every posts. I knew he would see it.


Culture_Goblin

Sure that's why you didn't tag him. You probably want to take a break from reddit...


pk-600-c

He's a regular. You prob should stop ban evading though


SouthernYoghurt9

I know you are really insecure about being a trans women and the abuse you suffered as a child from your peers because you acted too feminine in their eyes, but maybe this can serve as a great learning example for you as to how past socialization can subconsciously effect our actions. Your attempts to cyberbully people online for not conforming to your standards of how a trans person should think are probably related to the harassment you got earlier in life for not conforming to their standards. Victims of cruel behaviors very often perpetuate those behaviors down the road. You were harrassed for not acting like "how a man should", and now you go on to harrass ftms for not acting like "how a man should" Everybody with a bad past has to unlearn it, so I'm not mad at you, it's just sad how bothered you are by this, and how you won't even take the first steps towards fixing it for yourself. If you want to unlearn your past unfeminine socialization, you have to actually acknowledge you have a problem. I'm not saying you even have to unlearn it if you don't want to (I keep plenty of unmasculine habits and it why people like you crawl up my butt), but we both know you really don't want to have unfeminine habits


GingerAndTime

This seems a bit much.


pk-600-c

He's always like this. You were actually in a past conversation with him on the post I'm referring to (harassing a trans guy about how he got socialized female ) He will sometimes post great replies but often he's just there to attack people on socialization


GingerAndTime

Talking about [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/n0mzk1/am_i_the_only_ftm_that_never_experienced_female/gwajkx4/)?


pk-600-c

Yeah it's in that thread


pk-600-c

I like how you say > and now you go on to harrass ftms for not acting like "how a man should" When I mentioned about you literally harassing trans men who say they didn't really have a female socialization. I'm just stating that you're literally attacking everyone on socialization lol Have fun.


EmmaLynn_892

My goldfish had more self awareness than some people do I swear


SouthernYoghurt9

Girl, replying to someone in a public thread and disagreeing with them is not "harassing" someone. You're really going to say disagreeing with someone on a *public internet form* is crossing a line, but going behind someones back attacking them by name and making up shit about them because your salty one of my replies to you yesterday got more updoots than you did? You really need to look in a mirror and decide if this is really worth getting that upset over. You are making yourself upset over the most unimportant things


pk-600-c

Nah actually go back and you are in the negatives. Anyways. Yes you harrassed men even though they kept telling you to stop and that you were wrong and didn't know their upbringing. Btw that's from last month or so and you're still going on and harassing people about it.


SouthernYoghurt9

Neither of our comments are in the negative. Are you trying to bring up the post where one FTM was stalking *my* account and I had to tell him stop multiple times or I'd report him? You're just really living in your own imaginary world aren't you? Girl I'm sorry but this is unhealthy. If this is some sort of self-harm you are doing we can block each other if that would help?


pk-600-c

Nope the one where a guy made a post saying I'm ftm and I don't feel I had female socialization. You were all over that post. Last time I looked you were at -2 and mine at 4 so idk. Probably got upvoted by that culture person that has a couple of accounts lmfaooooo


GottaHideIt

yikes


KingVersacetrash

Someone posted about that theory on trans men and I agree. A lot of trans men who hold onto female socialization do it to make up for their lack of integration with masculinity and men in general. People don’t want to accept that being a man isn’t easy at all. Men are held to a incredibly higher standard than women. The only men who truly benefit “male privilege” have boxes to check. You can’t tell me for a second a white woman is disadvantaged in comparison to a black or Latino man. (Socially speaking because circumstances are different for everyone) A lot of trans men tap out and instead find a safety net and decide to “other” themselves so they can still be seen as men but take less of the accountability that comes with being a “icky cis man”. Conservative trans women are usually just bitter


Artisticslap

That's not what I got from OP's post, which was more like "people who don't pass try to deal with it bad ways". I can somewhat sympathise with that but I have never heard of someone going "yikes being a man sucks, I quit lol"; even with detransing people there is something else in the background. Assuming that people, who feel like men, wouldn't know beforehand what living as a man would mean sounds infantilising to me. Also why would any binary ftm call cismen icky (personally I know few people with poor hygiene but they're definitely not a large group)


SouthernYoghurt9

This guy just has an issue with feminine trans men


Mackadal

Like 80% of self-identified trans men see cis men and masculinity as icky and bad. I don't agree and I think that's stupid, but it's a very common sentiment. That's how you get the endless parade of uwu androgynous hyperfemme soft bois, the obsession with cis men as The Root Of All Evil, and the separation of trans men from "men" as a general category. In most mainstream trans circles you rarely see masculinity in any form celebrated or even tolerated.


Picklerickinnie

Man idk that’s kind of wrong what you’re saying here. I’m personally a feminine transman who is completely fine with the female socialization I’ve gone through, even if I need to cut it short now out of dysphoria and desire to transition. In all ftm circles I’ve been the whole « cis men bad trans men good » thing parting us is extrmely negative and not okay, and masculinity is definitely celebrated for.. we are men. Cis men who are androgynous and wear feminine clothes aren’t any more male than we are. Some of us like to be hyper masculine and that’s okay, some of us prefer to be andro or fem and that’s just as okay. Some go stealth and prefer to be perceived as cis and that’s okay and I’d like to be one of those EVEN if I’m an uwu androgntous hyper femboy as you say, because feminine men have always existed. I thought the whole feminine and masculine aren’t absolutely contradictory values was past us frankly


Artisticslap

No, I still don't buy it. Mainstream trans spaces are also dominated by mtfs, ofc in those people say stuff like T is poison and men are gross. What is this mainstream you're talking about? What you said could be true for a certain demographic in let's say the US and they could be active on Twatter or something. But In my country's (ftm) circles people are cool except for a minority of older guys who tryhard larp misogynists and claim they don't have feelings and other cringeworthy crap. Online I've seen binary (ftm) people present more androgynous and even femme but I've never seen anyone describe cissies as bad. I want to understand how we can have so drastically different view of the big picture.


ACutleryChristmas

>You can’t tell me for a second a white woman is disadvantaged in comparison to a black or Latino man. That's intersectionality dude. Doesn't remove the concept of male privilege.


SouthernYoghurt9

Seriously. I know a white woman who was raped by family members and forced to keep the baby as a teen, and I know a hispanic guy who went to private school and makes 500k+ a year. Context matters. There are plenty of countries where latin people are the majority, making a latino man the "highest" level of privilege there.


Marina_07

>You can’t tell me for a second a white woman is disadvantaged in comparison to a black or Latino man Alright but is a woman of color disadvantaged compared to a man of color? Because statistics will tell us she is and they will also shows us that everything elae being equal women will be worse ofd in almost every metric.


SouthernYoghurt9

How much time did you spend in TERF spaces? I used to go to the TERF debate subs on a weekly basis, and there were no TERF ftms there. They actually had a TERF mtf mod. Most toxic ftms are more like Kalvin Garrah. Trans med who hate enbies and non-passing people. Very similar to the Blaire White types honestly


HadayatG

I mean, you were there....so obviously there are some lol. Even people on this sub have mentioned that you’re the literal archetype of the first paragraph. I can’t even tell if you’re joking or if you are literally bizarre and self loathing enough to go to TERF subs on a “weekly basis”


SouthernYoghurt9

So every trans person in GCdebateQT spending hours arguing against TERfs, was secretly a TERF? Bro, you're just a dumbass and don't know what you're talking about. They're isn't much else to it


HadayatG

They are when they constantly come on this sub to spew TERF talking points. Lol, so me and the whole thread of people on this post talking about how you constantly spam this sub with TERF bs all don’t know what we’re talking about ? Suuuure lol


pk-600-c

Oops lol


VampArcher

I can't stand trans people who bow before those who oppress them(TERFS, conservatives, transphobes) by spreading their damaging ideologies and bringing dangerous groups into LGBT spaces for brownie points. Some trans people have 'not like other girls syndrome' where they have to show everybody how 'anti-woke' they are and how they are sooooo not like other trans people, they are the 'logical' ones. It's very harmful because the trans people who run around saying 'fuck all trans people, I'm one of the good special ones' are those who are often given a platform and get picked up my right-wing media outlets, it tells them that their bigotry is justified because another trans person is parroting exactly what they want to hear. Whenever you call these people what they are, transphobic/TERF, they pull the 'trans people can't be that' when they literally support their beliefs word for word.


SiBea13

You see this stuff with every social group sadly. People like Candace Owens, Milo Yiannopolous, Phyllis Schafield. There's always someone willing to throw their identity under the bus for their own strange benefit. Hatred is dependable. If you can sucker up to someone who is against you then you become the exception to them and that will be validating. And you'll understand exactly why every one else will hate you for it.


HadayatG

Except it never actually works. Bootlicking makes them realizes they can use you, it doesn't make them like you. They still loathe you just as much as any other trans/black/gay person.


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SiBea13

"Biologicals". Who's that then? The economic and social discrimination trans people face is real. Useful doesn't come into it. People like Blaire White because she legitimizes their preconceived notions about trans people. She isn't a "fun" person, she's the useful one for conservatives


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SiBea13

BW consistently spouts conservative propaganda about trans people. Whenever someone's accused of transphobia she downplays it, she's lied countless times about specific people (e.g. the trans weightlifter she said competed against women when she didn't), claiming transitioning is faulty, bullying smaller trans creators, claiming that Jessica Yaniv represents all trans people (like you just did). Those are the notions she reinforces and why people don't like her. Also, claiming that I am burning Harry Potter books and suing waxers is a stupid argument seeing as those are two examples among a community of millions of people. I could just as well accuse you of some shit you haven't done but someone who looks like you has


ACutleryChristmas

Lol you really just spouted some nonsense stereotypes while at the same time claiming trans people complain too much about discrimination. You're really gonna use Yaniv as a representative of all trans people? I completely disagree entirely with Yaniv. The post had nothing to do with living like everyone else. In fact it explicitly said that they dislike trans people who try and bar other trans girls from living like everyone else. Burning Harry Potter books... never seen an example. But it wouldn't be unjustified. Jk Rowling has spread transphobia to a lot of people (all the studies she started are debunked). She has influenced anti trans legislation in the UK. These are serious issues affecting real people. It's pretty nice that you just want to enjoy a beer. Cool, what does that have to do with us trying to tackle disproportionate violence and discrimination?


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SiBea13

Didn't even use the word but if you don't know what it means then you should research it. It means your identity corresponds to your birth sex


ACutleryChristmas

>not one person offline wants to hear how “oppressed” you are in a First World country You realise until recently it was completely legal in the US to deny any and all types of healthcare to trans people purely based on the fact that they are trans? That 40% of homeless youth in the UK are LGBT because they are being kicked out for being LGBT? That trans people are at disproportionate risk of murder, assault, and sexual violence? Just because you're ignorant to the oppression doesn't mean it is nonexistent.


Marina_07

Of course he realises all of that but he is a conservative asshole who is in this sub to troll, so he probably enjoys that.


SunshotDestiny

>Ultra Conservative trans women and TERFy trans men seem to be the two main flavors of trans people who think kissing ass to people who hate them is going to win them favor. Right, and I find people who charge forward insulting anyone who doesn't jump to validate whatever to be equally annoying. Being militant, surprise, gets you more push back no matter what your cause. Which is what I find more extreme "liberal" trans individuals to be. Very pushy and arrogant without consideration or thought to those around them.


unfriendlymango

Tbh yeah. I think TERFism has been used as a cope in many cases (vice versa for extreme conservativism).


KittyBastetinati

I dislike socially conservative women and socially conservative LGBT people in general. I mean... IT'S NOT EVEN just straight cisgender white men who are politically defending/reinforcing fascism these days. NO, their FEMALE and LGBT relatives do it a lot of the time TOO!!!!!!! It's just so goddamn disappointing. \*Sighs\*. When I see a straight cisgender white male reinforce social conservatism it's like "Well it's NO MYSTERY why YOU are the WAY you ARE. I DON'T LIKE you but, at least you don't make my brain bleed in disgusted confusion". But... Women... And LGBT people... Including trans women and trans men who are social conservatives (including in the TERFY flavor)... It's just... Bleh... So awful. I mean, they WANT to assimilate deeper into our incredibly FUBAR society so they can keep it going like this... They don't even want to destroy the foundation of this FUBAR society so we can actually make something better anymore. If so MANY women and LGBT people now SUPPORT the most destructive and oppressive aspects of the society we live in... What in the HELL are we supposed to do NOW? Also... What we call "Feminism" I think has become pointless, cause what's the point of feminism if we're just altering "western society" instead of destroying and replacing it's unacceptable foundations? What's the point if it's just pro establishment feminism mixed with pro establishment LGBT rights advancements? What's even the point of LGBT activism and feminism, if all these pro establishment ideologies have achieved is given some women and some LGBT people the opportunity to essentially be just as bad as a patriarchal oppressor? We don't NEED token leaders like Caitlyn Jenner... We need to destroy the very foundations of social conservatism so the world can undergo a rebirth into a better state. We need to eliminate the very foundations of what a level of people misguidedly base their very identities upon... And a lot of people are too scared to be willing to do that. My mother is a super social conservative. Not gonna give you any hints about identifying information but... It's very very bad. And I don't think socially conservative trans women and socially conservative LGBT people in general are really all that different from my mother. LGBT people and women USED to be cool a lot more often but NOW a lot of them ACT like (socially conservative) straight white cisgender men and by that I mean they POLITICALLY BEHAVE the same way. (That is acting socially conservative). Regardless of if they are cisgender women, transgender women, transgender men, or LGB people. ... As for the "Socialization" thing... To be HONEST I don't think SOCIETY in GENERAL socializes ANYBODY right. The only people who were socialized RIGHT were people who lucked out on their parents. Most people are not socialized right and gender has hardly anything to DO with us being socialized WRONG. Yeah being raised male tends to give you a different set of mental problems than being raised female, but a socially conservative upbringing IN GENERAL messes us up, doesn't matter WHAT flavor of indoctrination we get. What MOST of society considers a "Normal man" or "normal woman" IS NOT GOOD. Gender should just be A PERSONAL CHOICE. Gender shouldn't be mired in cultural baggage, brainwashing, coercion and indoctrination. TERFs are WRONG that "Abolishing gender" will "abolish dysphoria". Abolishing dysphoria can't abolish dysphoria because dysphoria CAN very OFTEN be a brain map issue UNRELATED to culture and socialization. Even if gender is abolished, our brain maps will remain the same, and people with mismatched brain maps to their bodies will still be born. Which is why I think we should just make gender a personal choice, instead of something mired in traditions and sociological constrictions.


[deleted]

True, not much you can do when your own parents force you into female/male socialization. Outside of them, I don't think I was particularly socialized either way tbh. I feel like girls never felt I was a threat, because I was not like them. I was a weird tall geeky kid. Edit: it sucks and it's very confusing to be brought up in a way that doesn't even fit you. Pretty traumatic.


Gardevoir_LvX

You talk about destroying society as if you understand what that actually entails, complete with the fallout of what comes after the destruction of major tennits of society. Harmful in part does not mean harmful in whole. Everything in life is a compromise. Also, us social conservatives are not exactly a homogenous group when it comes to beliefs and views. Except for a few things. Life doesn't revolve around you and your wants. Demanding the world reflect your views and beliefs is selfish; and it is better to change yourself and to *focus on the things you control*, rather than yell at others to change. They may never accept you, but they may come to respect your dicipline and perseverance... and this often leads to acceptance. This is not an easy path. When I transitioned as a teenager half a lifetime ago, I didn't go around screaming at people to accept me. I didn't even come out, for the most part. Eventually, people noticed what was happening to my body. It was rough. I lost my job, I had to depend on lovers and I even prostituted myself for a while. But when I got new jobs, I put my nose to the wheel and made myself dependable. When people misgendered me, I didn't throw a fit, I merely smiled and continued talking until my voice sent enough cues for them to figure out what was going on. And now, I am widely accepted in my area as a disciplined, dependable woman with more grit than most my age. Because I worked on what I could control instead of demanding others to follow.


Culture_Goblin

Because misgendering FTMs as TERFs is cool as long as they disagree with you? And everyone who disagrees with you it a hun or failed transitioner? Come on. This just comes off as really insecure. Handsome and successful trans men can disagree with you. I'm sure you don't agree with Blaire White, and she's rich and hot. Does the same "rule" not apply to her? I'd try to go through your post history to find evidence that you are ugly and sad but I have a life


HadayatG

Lolll, how the hell is calling a guy a TERF misgendering ? TERF=Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. None of that specifies “woman”. Find something else to white knight about. And you’re welcome to anything in my post history bud lol.


Culture_Goblin

If you think there are any male/men TERFs, you don't know the first thing about TERFs Frequent poster in FTMMen, lol that makes sense


HadayatG

So I guess you don’t have a life after all lol. Most nurses are women. But calling a man a nurse isn’t misgendering. I know it’s a complex concept for you to understand, but just because a group is mostly one gender doesn’t make it misgendering to say that someone not of that gender is a part of that groups


Intrinsic__Value

So you hate conservatives... imagine if someone said they hate liberals. You hate 50% of the population. Btw, you don't have to be ultra conservative to believe that transwomen do not belong on female sports teams - Tulsa Gabbard believes that and she's liberal.... because hormones cannot change the larger hands, height, lung capacity, etc... In sports, it's important to make the playing field as level as possible.


GingerAndTime

OP never said he hates conservatives. In fact I'd say he said nothing worse about conservatives than you've said about liberals.


Intrinsic__Value

I would argue his/her definition of ultra conservatives is inaccurate. It does not take a radical conservative to be against transwomen participating in competitive female sports. In fact, many liberals are against it.


GingerAndTime

Yes. That is certainly what you already said. But what does that have to do with whether or not OP hates conservatives?


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GingerAndTime

First, you're stepping your claim down to OP merely disliking conservatives. When again, he said nothing worse about conservatives that you've said about liberals. Whence comes the self-victimization of your original comment? >So you hate conservatives... imagine if someone said they hate liberals. You hate 50% of the population. Doesn't that seem like a bit much? Second, OP is not a she.


Marina_07

>Tulsa Gabbard You wrote her name wrong and ignore that she is so conservative she's been pushed out of any relevance by her own party. If you don't think hormones can make the playing field even then show it with actual scientific data, because the data that exists points to hrt evening out the outcomes. Also, should we require a maximum height to compete in women sports or a maximum hand size? Because I can assure you there will be more cis women affected by those rulea than trans women.


Intrinsic__Value

I wonder who funded / conducted the studies that concluded hormones completely levelled the playing field? Could they have vested interest in having transwomen play on female sports team? One simple example. Males have larger lung capacity, which means they can take in more oxygen with each breath. That absolutely does not change on hormones. Depending on the sport, there are further restrictions within the gender category. For instance, MMA has a lot of weight classes. Maybe we should have more divisions as well. Your logic of saying "well, not all ciswomen are built equally anyway, so might as well let transwomen play" is like saying "you already have a cut on your body, it wouldn't hurt to give you another cut".


Marina_07

Clearly it couldn't possibly be that they leveled the playing field, it must be a conspiracy to fund misleading studies. /s That is such a dumb thing to say, if it was a single isolated study it could be but it isn't. You clearly know nothing about how science works but it's not surprising from a conservative.


Intrinsic__Value

Nice. Insults, typical. Show your sources. I'll show you another study that suggests the opposite. You still havent disputed my single example regarding lung capacity. You know full well that transwomen retain some of their male physiology regardless how long they're on hormones for.


Marina_07

I really don't like arguing with conservatives because they don't do so in good faith, so I'll probably not respond further than this comment as I have better things to do. [https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref) The differences in everything but running banished after 2 years. Running greatly favors taller people so no surprises there as the study didn't account for height differences. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30010735/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30010735/) The quantifiable differences seem to exist entirely because of teatosterone. The IOC currently requires a level under 10 nmol/L which still confers advantages and it would be more fair to require 5 as they already do for cis women. The previous study aimed for levels between 5 and 10 so lowering them could also account for the differences. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31217230/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31217230/) Again arguing how the advantages are from testosterone and how the IOC decision to allow higher levels for trans women is stupid. You already see cases of cis women having greater physical advantages from higher levels of testosterone such as women with pcos being overrepresented and women like Caster Semenya among others being forced to lower their natural testosterone levels to be allowed to compete. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27699698/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27699698/) There is no consistent research showing advantages and more should be done but for now there is no reason to exclude trans women. As I said I really don't care about arguing with someone like you so I'll probably won't respond till much later if at all since it will only be a waste of time.


Intrinsic__Value

You don't like arguing with conservatives. I don't like arguing with people who deny basic biology. So many fallacies with these articles. For example your third article, verbatim says: *"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."* No athletics advantage at any stage of their transition? Excuse me? At the beginning of the transition, a transwoman has a 100% male body (pre-HRT). The author(s) are suggesting a male body is not any more competitive than a female body. That is blatantly false. A published article does not guarantee truth.


smineminem-

Are we just going to ignore the many cis woman with broad masculine body types, big hands, more strength etc.? There’s many lanky and not so strong trans women too. There’s no point in trying to make the playing field equal when we have masculine high T cis women already, me being one of those afab with higher testosterone and bigger body build.


Intrinsic__Value

If there's no point in making the playing field equal, then we should have mixed gender competitive sports? Clearly, we should be equalizing the playing field as much as possible. Although there are women with more masculine body types, that does not mean it's OK for a male to join the female sports division. We should be doing all that we can to make the playing field as equal as possible (let's move in the right direction here). In fact, I think some sports are now testing natal females for their testosterone levels; some women have naturally very high levels of testosterone.


smineminem-

Seems like you just think trans women are just men in disguise or something. And yeah, we should have sports mixed to be completely honest with ya. There’s already so much diversity in both women and men’s builds that it doesn’t matter much, if you’re good at a sport then you’re good at it.


Intrinsic__Value

Hahahahaha. You want to have mixed sports? Youre a lunatic. The top female sprinter can be defeated by high school boys. I dont think you have any idea how different the male body is from the female body. The former is built much more efficiently for certain sports like sprinting.


moba_kings

Funny thing about terfy trans men is that they undermine their whole gender identity by acting like Karens


Intrinsic__Value

I am a conservative trans woman. FYI I am not ass kissing to anyone. I side with policies and arguments that make sense to me. That is 100% of my decision making :)