T O P

I think society does dislike trans women more

I think society does dislike trans women more

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OriginalShortlord

My view: transphobes see trans men as women, and so see us as a joke more than a threat. After all, *women* can't be a threat, silly women will never be men! Meanwhile, trans women are not only actively upsetting the status quo by willingly transitioning to women, but they also confuse the transphobes' pps and so they are seen as more of an active threat. I'm not gonna get into any socialization aspects because i honestly don't think they apply to this argument. I think it's as simple as society thinking "women are lesser, women are objects", and the shitty opinions and actions that flow out of that base assumption like a sewage line.


8bitquarterback

This. Misogyny is the root of all transphobia, IMO (and many other ills as well). Trans women are seen as delusional and crazy for choosing womanhood, because who would EVER debase themselves that way, and trans men are seen as delusional little girls who could never be real men. I'll add that trans men upset the status quo too by opting out of the prescribed roles for AFAB people, particularly by "ruining" the bodies that society feels ownership over and by daring to not be baby machines. All roads lead back to misogyny when it comes to transphobic thought.


Gold_Attention_5796

Not arguing anything you're saying and can't speak for trans men but I think trans women bring a lot of it on themselves. The mean username thing the perfect example. It's no wonder trans women have a reputation for being histrionic lunatics. The shitty part is I get lumped in with a bunch of trans people who have no idea what living as a woman is like. The ones who make all the noise are doing from their mom's basement and don't face real world consequences.


kafka123

I don't want to say that trans men are not upsetting the status quo exactly, but trans men only threaten the status quo when people are very aware of that status to begin with. And I think that's why society can sometimes be meaner towards trans women than trans men. E.g. if you have a group of sexist men, it upsets them to see a woman take a position of power or for them to act in ways that are deemed masculine for them, but it doesn't upset the status quo if that person becomes a man and is integrated into the group. But a trans woman in that situation would upset the status quo, because she would be offered up a group of sexist men and say no to them and join the women. And in some cases, those trans men can uphold the status quo to a degree by adding and perpetuating misogynistic ideas and voices and male privilege, which doesn't occur with trans women. On the other hand, I think some afabs have it right when they point out that trans men can sometimes be more upsetting to the status quo, because trans men who are not seen as men or boys by society are born into a misogynistic system and can escape how that affects them by transitioning and use it to challenge people and call them out, whereas trans women are often raised as men for a proportion of their lives and losing unfair advantages they gained as men isn't necessarily challenging because it puts them in a similar position to feminist men or other oppressed women and could even be seen as adding to amab entitlement, none of which are issues with trans men.


SouthernYoghurt9

The trans "community" is high-key embarrassing for a lot of reasons...


AnonAltR1

I'd wager it's more along the lines of things like: Transphobic men go to hit on you, then they feel gay so they hate you. Transphobic women see you as a man pretending to be a woman when you're actually a shitty handsy part-of-problem male, so they hate you. When these people see an afab transition to manhood, they think "this *woman* needs support!" Women coming at it from an internal mindset of girls supporting girls, men coming at it from a mindset of chivalry. When these people see an AMAB transition to womanhood, they think you're supporting yourself, making a delusion so that you have your own support. But that doesn't mean things are any less toxic or based in transphobia for trans men, if anything it would be harder to tell who's actually supportive in the way they should be, which i would assume feels gaslight-y.


8bitquarterback

I'm going to gently push back on the notion that people see AFAB transition as a matter that deserves genuine support. We are certainly still viewed as women by many and that does manifest in patronizing forms of concern trolling, but trans male transition is never viewed as a legitimate, worthy, or positive pursuit. The only "support" we're offered is by TERFs, who want to save us from what they believe is just internalized misogyny and patriarchal brainwashing.


AnonAltR1

I guess that's what I'm saying though. I don't disagree with you at all. Like it seems like you'd get a lot more of what SEEMS like support at first glance, which I think is what op is seeing and referring to, but I doubt that that support is frequently anything more than transphobia spoken softly. Like, guys have a tendancy to be nice to women. So if they see you as women, you get their "nice" mindset. Women try to support women, so if they see you as women you get their "support" mindset. Either way you're served equally toxic transphobia just stated in nicer words. And to pile on all of that would make it harder to tell who actually supports you. Like as a trans AMAB, a lot of people I've met are "trans friendly" but then it turns out later they're not really allies and it's more like "yeah I don't care that you're delusional you do you". I'd assume this experience would be much more frequent as a transmasc :/ doesn't seem much better if at all to have POLITE transphobia as a norm.


AntifaStoleMyPenis

I get what you're saying. Like not given genuine support, but treated as victims of outside forces rather than aggressors acting with their own agency. It's probably one of the reasons why all the attacks on healthcare for trans kids are basically of the form "we need to protect girls from the trans agenda" and "they only have dysphoria because of how hard it is to be a woman" and that kind of shit. Which is not to say that's an inherently better thing be patronized in that "damsel in distress" kind of way (obviously), but people are going to be way less hostile/suspicious towards your actions when they think your actions are due to being a weak, helpless victim who's only capable of being a danger to yourself.


8bitquarterback

Great post. I always find it interesting that these so-called feminists view AFAB trans people as easily influenced, unable to make their own/the "right" decisions about their lives, and in need of constant guidance and protection. Very feminist point of view, that.


AntifaStoleMyPenis

Oh yeah, it's hilarious how the TERFs will go on and on about "adult human female" and then do everything in their power to negate the "adult" part of it, lol.


AnonAltR1

Precisely, the same mess of misogyny and transphobia lead to the way both transfemmes and transmascs are treated, it just manifests in different manners. Doesn't make it any less of misogyny and transphobia.


8bitquarterback

Right, okay -- I thought that may have been what you were getting at, but I wasn't sure, so sorry for echoing your point back at you, ha. You're absolutely correct that people tend to assume transmascs don't get hate, and it's often because of that "polite" variety of transphobia that masquerades as "care" for us.


AnonAltR1

You're good I didn't feel like you were jumping down my throat or anything. Glad to know I'm at least partially picking up a correct vibe of how the transmasc experience compares!


kafka123

That's a fair point.


AcanthisittaKlutzy40

Lol no. If you actually listen to trans men and trans mascs you'll hear about the loneliness the way people you thought were friends discard you because you're no longer "fuckable" once you become "too masculine" or because they assume you're now the enemy and hate womanhood or are sexist because "why would a woman chose to be a man unless its misogyny" or they try to rape you to make you "change your mind". Because clearly Afab people have no real thoughts or dysphoria and we're all pudding headed easily influenced hysterical victims of the patriarchy - fuck even the way some trans women talk about trans men and mascs like we're privileged self deluded oafs who know nothing about patriarchy and transphobia that's often been directed at us for years just the lack of empathy lke I'd never assume that a trans woman has had a wonderful life being forced to hide until she came out but so many white trans women are really invested in the idea of themselves as the only people who suffer and the biggest sufferers and seem to tie that into their womanhood thst they're inherently "more enlightened" bevasue they automatically had "the harder time" coming out completely ignoring all the other factors and that there's no singular trans experience and people have different levels of struggle. Trans masc people are seen as throwing away our only value - as breeding machines or attractive women and people who hate us are jsut as violent but it comes out in different ways


kafka123

I think the reason this happens is because while all that is true, trans men have a sort of attitude towards gender which can come across to others as either delusional or entitled. At a certain point, if you want to be seen as a man, you have to see yourself as one, with all that entails. Many trans men don't want to do that, they like seeing themselves as TRANS men. And that comes off as not quite right or not quite believable, because it implies that they're either masculine women, or ardent feminist men who don't resemble or like other men - because they're too pure to put themselves in the same bracket as cis men who might be misogynistic or to relate to cis men on their level - or that they are men, but that they're entitled men who want the kind of predatory freedom that trans women get accused of wanting, in which one is given the privilege of having free reign over any space without exception. If you're the sort of person who feels that cis men are misogynistic and you are not the same as them, that might be true, but if you truly want to be viewed as a man and not a masculine woman, then there's probably a part of you that needs to count yourself in that group as well. And if you enjoy the advantages you get from being a man and also wish to be seen as a man and not a woman in a man-shaped trenchcoat, then you probably have gained some advantages over women (or at least differences from them) and don't really belong in their spaces or have the right to speak for them anymore. Of course, there probably comes a point at which people want to identify as something more androgynous, but don't know how to frame it, or feel that they want to assert their masculine identity without being tarred with the same brushes as cis men for good reasons; what if someone actually does want to be a woman in a man-shaped trenchcoat, but can't admit that to cis men? What if someone identifies as male, but feels that they're the equivalent of a cis man raised in a women's only feminist commune? They were probably raised as women, after all. But that person is still going to be fighting against the tide if they want to fit in with other people, despite having the right attitude towards how they feel. To use an analogy, if I want to fit in with other women as a trans woman, I have to accept that some dude is going to see me as a radical feminist for being a woman who doesn't put up with sexism and some cis women are going to think I'm a republican sex kitten for defending men, because men's experiences of women aren't necessarily going to be, "oh, I'll make an exception for this person I don't know is trans but still think of as a woman", and women aren't necessarily going to go, "oh, I will consider this person as much of a woman as I am but still take their word on men". But I suppose one could also flip the argument and say that trans men face more transphobia, because I suspect there probably ARE some cis people who are willing to see trans women that way, whereas trans men are rarely seen that way. But most trans women don't have this as a general problem. Like, they're not going to spend all their time identifying as trans women because it isn't a socially useful thing that they benefit to admitting from. It doesn't usually help them or anyone else to admit any gripes they have about cis women or cis men, whereas it does "help" trans men to do so (even though it actually harms them in many ways and can harm other people if done badly).


AcanthisittaKlutzy40

So what practical advise do I take from this? That trans men and trans masc Afab people are seen as delusional or self entitled for wanting to not be misgendered or abused especially by people within our own community and and that by complaining about it or expressing our emotions or talking about experiences we make it harder for everyone else and should shut up because there's only enough empathy pie for women and intersectionality isn't real ? I'm struggling to interpret this and that's what I'm reading from it currently bedbound in horrific pain with a chronic illness that I'm struggling to get treatment for that could be cancer (that many transmasculine people and trans men who advocated and worked for the community and then were discarded have died from over and over because of medical neglect and transphobia But at the end of the day trans men and trans masc looking for an open discussion honestly trying to tlak about stuff... Wemake trans people look bad and need to "man up" and stop talking about medical domestic and sexual violence done even within trans communities to them and the gaslighting. I'm sorry the pain and delerium from this untreated illness in the organs that I'm apparently not allowed to remove in case some future cis man wants me as a breeding vessel is making it hard for me to focus on how privileged I am because people see me as a woman with a beard and I get misgendered by Drs even after I've told them celarly and wear a fucking badge yeah there's nothing anyone else should do to support us people online assume that all transmascs and trans men daring to talk about stuff like this are blaming trans women or making the community look bad. maybe that's where the high suicide rates come from idk it's made me sacred that I might actually be a man because the attitude I've seen in a lot of online trans and lgbtai+ spaces the attitude towards any trans masc or trans man can be similar to the abuse/bullying I've received from "fellow girls" throughout my childhood and adolescence and even in adulthood that was jsut as damaging as the abuse I've suffered from cis men and I feel like there's a lot more people willing to accept this type of "subtle" emotional abuse as normal in spaces because switching from toxic masculinity to toxic femininity is seen as the goal by some people . Trans masculine and trans men are useful tokens but a lot of people seem to go after us with this hatred that they don't go after even cis transphobes with Idk I'm exhausted by this now so like you win or whatever I'll shut up and go away and stop talking about my problems which aren't important


kafka123

That sounds horrible, I admit that hadn't taken into consideration those sorts of transphobic limitations, but it's also not really what I was talking about. I'm sorry you're in that situation and I hope that you get that sorted out and can get your organs removed.


AcanthisittaKlutzy40

Cheers yeah sorry for getting so intense it's just been a nightmare. Idk this shit happens to trans women too with not being taken seriously about health issues then it ending up being something fatal- I just wish people would stop seeing all trans people as hysterical and deluded with no knowledge of our own bodies.


kafka123

I agree.


GingerAndTime

"Who has it worse?" was looking to be a great start to another great /r/honesttransgender thread. And then, when you pivoted to trans women being aggressive due to male socialization? That's some real *chef's kiss* shit right there. Good thread, OP. This one might even top [your prior work](https://old.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/o3mxwx/some_of_the_people_who_argue_against/).


pk-600-c

Oh shit I didn't even realize it was culturetroll again lol


SouthernYoghurt9

I will never understand why easily offended people will come onto a sub specifically designed for contentious topics and then act shocked and offended when they see contentious stuff


GingerAndTime

Oh? Hmm... nah. Perhaps you're projecting?


SouthernYoghurt9

nO u


AntifaStoleMyPenis

Calling out a blatant troll attempt is not the same thing as being easily offended, lol


GingerAndTime

Now, now. Let's not be defending my stark-raving hysteria.


AntifaStoleMyPenis

It really do be like that, lol


SouthernYoghurt9

"Opinion I disagree with" is not the same thing as a troll. This poster posts opinions similar to this a lot, they probably actually belive what they are saying


AntifaStoleMyPenis

I mean I don't even necessarily disagree with the title... just that when your account barely has any activity at all, and nearly all your activity in the sub is commenting on your own posts, and all your posts in the sub have a similar flavor to them, it ain't hard to figure out what it's really about, lol.


Gold_Attention_5796

Someone had to say it. thx


AcanthisittaKlutzy40

Ask trans men of colour how safe and privelged they feel compared to a white trans woman op. It's not as simple as you want it to be and I wish more fellow white trans people would recognise that it's complex as fuck and stop assuming every trans man is white het and abled.


Miskellaneousness

The reason is because people are more offended by the perception of men infringing on women's spaces than women infringing on men's spaces. Yes, this sentiment is based on the view that trans women are not women, or that they're not *realllllllly* women. A clear way to see this is with regard to sports. People get upset with trans women playing in women's sports but they do not care about trans men playing in men's sports. This is because the idea of a man playing in a women's league seems unfair and invasive while the idea of a woman playing in a man's league seems neither unfair nor invasive. A locker room situation presumably functions similarly: men would be, on average, significantly less bothered by a naked woman in their locker room than women would be, on average, by a naked man in their locker room. I won't try to get into the reasons that this dynamic exists, but I think it's fairly obvious that what people are reacting to here is "men entering spaces specifically for women." And yes, again, this is based on the view that trans women are not really women. I do have to say that I find it a little surprising that you've pondered this specific question before but haven't identified this theme. I don't think it's particularly mysterious. There may be other drivers as well, of course, but this is certainly among the top reasons for specifically anti-trans women sentiments.


jerrygalwell

I think its due to men(people with male bodies) being seen as a default threat or danger to women (people with female bodies), they only see our bodies and so we're seen as a threat to ciswomen. We also tend to have a harder time going stealth than average transmen. It's a geralisation, but its less likely that a tall masculine woman with a deep voice is going to pass than a short feminine man with a higher voice, especially if they get a beard. Obviously this isn't true for all transwomen and transmen, but yeah.


KingVersacetrash

This is the most passive aggressive post I’ve seen in awhile. But I’ll add my input. I think trans women are given a harder time for the same reason gay men and feminine cis men are given a hard time. The desire for masculinity and maleness is seen as a crazy thing to drop. It’s almost a sympathetic response towards women who prefer to play with masculinity and even understandable for a “woman who wants to be a man”. Female celebrities get praised for wearing suits and masculine clothes and meanwhile Harry styles wore a dress and people lost their shit. Women get a pass when it comes to playing with masculinity. Lesbians, (while they are sexualized) are more accepted in areas that would be more hostile towards gay men. For example, in some black and brown communities, a stud is acceptable and she can be open about her sexuality but a feminine gay man and even masculine gay men to a degree isn’t as accepted and if they are, he can’t talk about his sexuality. Nobody cares about trans women being aggressive unless it’s to prove they’re not real women. Trans women threaten straight masculinity. Trans men don’t. Trans men (specifically talking older trans men or trans men who don’t fall into queer ideology ) also have much easier times blending into society and adapting to male culture. Trans men don’t have a magnifying glass on them as much. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, trans men have a better time merging with cis society. straight cis passing trans men are also the only group in the lgbt space that can cut their ties altogether with the community much easier than other groups. Trans women can only if they pass which can be a coin toss. On the flip side, what I mentioned above is starting to not be the case anymore. A good amount of trans men as of now have a hard time fitting in male spaces which is identical to cis men who have a hard time living up to their fathers and grandfathers or western masculinity in general. Trans men have an awkward place in society because society doesn’t tell them to “man up” necessarily. Specifically liberal society and trans men usually stay in liberal spaces. trans men either feel the need to compensate their masculinity or they don’t but either way, they don’t have a magnifying glass on them. Unless it’s by other trans men or people in the community. People take trans men much more at a face value way. If they pass as cis men good on you. If they look like cis women, they can hold on to those ties. Feminist also accept trans men a little bit more. Even the most radical feminist at times can accept a trans guy. She just won’t see you as a guy. Trans women don’t have this with men in male spaces community. Trans women literally have only trans women and some female spaces for community. If they don’t pass, they’re creeps to their community, and make some cis women uncomfortable and most cis men don’t want to be bothered.


8bitquarterback

>Even the most radical feminist at times can accept a trans guy. She just won’t see you as a guy. I understand the dynamic you're trying to describe, but this isn't actually acceptance at all.


[deleted]

Kind of off topic, but..wow, I was just thinking about the gamestop lady today! Yes, she did react poorly, but when I watched the video again I noticed that the kid still said "he" after she corrected him. I also thought it was super inappropriate when they made a dumb funkopop of her. I hate those things anyway and that was kind of mean lol. Edit: Whether she was an awful criminal who deserved it or not, it's still not a good thing that they did that. It's really in bad taste..


chuckafucka

I think you are opening a can of worms about socialization so I'm going to sit back, grab my popcorn and watch the fireworks fly on your post that some will deem a bit spicy. I think it's simpler than that though, I think that in a patriarchal society, being male is preferred and respected more. To transition away from that seems like throwing away the winning lottery ticket to people who don't understand what it's like to be trans. On the other hand, 'wanting to be a man' is again the default goal (I think its a legacy mindest from the days where it was preferred to have a male heir) so trans men aren't looked at with the same disdain perhaps? I think it has more to do with patriarchy than it does much else. EDIT: I also think a lot of it has to do with the fact that for almost all of history, women were considered second-class citizens. In the US we've only had the right to vote for about a hundred years in a republic that's 245 years old. And because a lot of people do not view trans people as their actual gender or sex, then as far as they are concerned, trans women are nothing more than men invading women's spaces - spaces that were hard fought and won by and for women. None of that is my particular point of view but I am trying to be objective in understanding people's bigotry - I think that's also a lot of the issue Or both of us are way off the mark? That's always a possibility


SouthernYoghurt9

Down-grading from man to women certainly would be seen as more confusing, but wouldn't trying to upgrade from woman to man be seen as more threatening by the patriarchy? Just as an example, if a woman tried to drive in the Califate, they'd cut her hands off. If a man said he never wanted to drive, it would be odd, but not that big of a threat for him to give up one of his privileges


chuckafucka

I never said I was right. I offered the opinion that I could be way off the mark. But using your example, giving up one male privilege or giving up all of them - is the difference, I think. Also, thankfully most of the world is not run by religious zealots. Though, we do seem to be inching in that direction, unfortunately


kafka123

It can be, but it doesn't necessarily work that way.


kafka123

>I think it's simpler than that though, I think that in a patriarchal society, being male is preferred and respected more. To transition away from that seems like throwing away the winning lottery ticket to people who don't understand what it's like to be trans. On the other hand, 'wanting to be a man' is again the default goal (I think its a legacy mindest from the days where it was preferred to have a male heir) so trans men aren't looked at with the same disdain perhaps? I think it has more to do with patriarchy than it does much else. I think the edit is closer to the truth and the original answer is the default answer which isn't really that accurate unless you're talking to the most obvious misogynistic bigot.


DodoRobo

The gamestop lady stuff. It doesn't even have to be socialisation but just frustration, I don't even want to know how frustrating it must be to be forced to do RLE for a year before being allowed to transition. And considering a lot of places still demand that, I am suspecting that was the case for her. I wouldn't put the blame on her. We only know the one clip, we don't know what she went through up to that point. I wouldn't even call her a "bad apple", the people harassing and making fun of trans people who don't pass for whatever reason are the bad apples.


Rainyforestlife

Yes. I feel like the social acceptance of trans men tends to be a bit bigger.


[deleted]

I never lived as a man and can’t really relate to the gender socialization shit since I lived very gender neutral as a child despite my parents only letting me wear unisex and male clothing, but my mom let me use female hair products and soaps/shampoos. IMO it’s largely an excuse for peoples bad behaviors. I’m AMAB, I’m extremely shy, quiet, submissive and feminine leaning since childhood cause that’s just how my personality is. If interacting with males was supposed to ruin my life and make me a hyper aggressive ass then idk what to tell you cause I’ve had plenty of exposure to both genders. GameStop lady is a bad example btw, she committed armed robbery, is an active drug abuser with kids and literally took a picture wearing a fetish collar in front of her kid.