Wi spa, Jessica Yani, why is it always trans women?
By - Instaquwwn
This post has been locked due to : It has come to a natural conclusion.
What sane non or pre op transwoman would try to go to a female only spa or any space where naked bodies are exposed. I'm a non op transwoman btw. I don't want my identity or community associated with these idiots.
I do not see why it is personalised that much. The person in the spa incident did nothing more than what the trans community has been advocating for, regarding unconstrained access of trans women to female spaces. This person, as far as I understand, has been medically and socially transitioning since a long time. Stop declaring a person who has been transitioning as non-trans just on the basis of bad PR or you do not like them for some reason.
So instead of discussing about the specific person one should discuss about what the trans movement has been advocating for all these years. If one agrees with these goals, then that person has done nothing wrong.
>The person in the spa incident did nothing more than what the trans community has been advocating for, regarding unconstrained access of trans women to female spaces.
And I guess the "trans community" got to see the result.
Do you consider it to have been positive or negative?
I think it is a bad situation in general that does not allow any nuanced discussion, unfair to women, and that more and more issues will be coming up and making to the news.
I'm glad you agree it's not nice.
In your opinion, might the trans community's advocacy for unconstrained access of transwomen (as defined solely based on "identity") to female spaces have anything to do with what happened?
Yes, that was what I meant in the first comment.
Perhaps you might check your sources. I am pretty sure this guy is a documented, (convicted), sex offender.
It seems to me the sex offenses this person was convicted to could be similar in nature.
God fuck this is so upsetting
bad people found out that they can identify their way into being a minority in an environment where being a minority gives you impunity for your actions.
It's like pole vaulting from white heterosexual cismale humdrum-ness into the gold medal in the diversity Olympics. An irresistible opportunity for not just sex offenders but narcissists.
... I don't know... Trans women committing sexual assaults bother me a hell of a lot more than the physical assaults... Both because, while you can beat someone up in self defense you can't sexually assault someone in self defense, and because it makes the rest of us look so bad and gives our enemies so much opposition whenever a singular trans woman sexually assaults someone. As for... Why these stories get so much more publicity than people who aren't trans women that do stuff just as bad???? That's probably related to the fact we are in a political crosshair right now.
All it takes is one trans woman doing something very bad, and the far right+transphobic feminists go after trans women as a whole... It happens over and over again it's awful. There's no point in debating rather these individuals are "true trans women" or not. Denying they are trans women is not gonna make the far right and transphobic feminists be any less transphobic anyways... Trans woman is not and should not be a moral category. A trans woman is not inherently a more malevolent or more benevolent individual. There's no point in debating this.
Trans women's attitudes towards cisgender women range from totally apathetic, to resentful envy that is sometimes dangerous, to being a full blown political ally. We are not a social club, or a moral category or a political stance.
I don't know what happened with the spa incident... I assume something bad happened, but A. this isn't all trans women's fault, and B. it's so damn hard to know what exactly happened for sure cause all the rampant politiciazation.
It's not always trans women. The difference is, a random cis woman doing something like that is not going to be a national news story, so we never hear about it. A trans woman doing anything wrong is bound to be a huge news story.
Yes.....l have to agree(?) However, how can a *" random cis woman"* flash a semi-erect penis????
I didn't specifically mean that. I meant sexual harassment/sexual assault in general. A cis woman, or cis man being accused of sexual harassment/assault is not going to become a major news story unless the accused is a celebrity. If the accused is a trans woman, it is bound to be a huge story no matter what.
Tbh, as a true crime junkie, I don’t agree with this take. I could probably name ten serial rapists off the top of my head, but rape in general rarely makes the news unless it’s local news for the purposes of warning the community. Sadly, as the saying goes, “if it bleeds, it leads”. And anything out of the ordinary, or especially fucked up is going to make the news. Serial rapists make the news, teachers who sleep with students make the news, doctors who abuse patients make the news, and trans women assaulting cis women will make the news.
A cis woman doing what? Exposing a vagina in a men's locker room? I think that would be a huge story since it's so unusual. The stories of cis woman teachers statutory raping high schoolers get a ton of attention everytime it happends. I imagine an enby doing anything like that would blow up bigger than a trans women, because even more people like to hate them
It's not to the national level though. Trans people are so rare and are such a threat to cis-het society, when we do anything bad it is immediately made the target of every alternative news website and conservative forum. Which it will likely get hosted on Fox News eventually and garner the massive audience.
As far as NB people go, they don't exist to the average person. NB's are barely remembered within the trans community themselves that expecting cis-het people to somehow remember or care about a minority of a minority, who for the most part don't shake up the system too much, is just laughable.
>Why are there so many cases of trans women rudely exposing themselves, beating people up, or sexually harassing minors?
There aren't. The rate of incidence is pathetically low compared to cis people, but keep buying into media sensationalism.
The rate of incidence is a useless statistic if not considered as a percentage of the population.
The population of the U.S. that is trans is low.
If we define women as "people who say they are women", the percentage of so-called "transwomen" who commit sexual assault will skyrocket because sex offenders will readily abuse this to gain access to women.
This loose definition is not good for women or transwomen.
It’s AGPs. An Hsts would never.
I notice it tends to be people who just look like they put on women's clothes and say they identify as a trans woman. literally doing the strawman that conservatives believe all trans women to be. and then some predator does this and they go "see??? we warned you!" and its so goddamn frustrating
every time I see a story like this it makes me fucking hate myself and feel disgusting
Don't hate yourself because sex offenders do what sex offenders do - gain access to victims through shady means, including identifying as transwomen.
Yeah but we’ve made it so that “people who just look like they put on women’s clothes and say they identify as a trans woman” is enough to make that person a woman, or at least enough to make it so society must allow them to be seen as one in all ways. This is a “careful what you wish for” thing. Incidents like this will continue to happen.
Re Wi spa: Her name or any variations of her name can't currently be found in the california sex offenders registry which is contrary to what was reported- A livestream I was just watching googled it to try to verify any facts beyond the Andy Ngo story : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FMzwyWnb5I&ab\_channel=TransGirlTherapist
"I guess my point is, the exact same way MOST men are not predators, is the exact same way MOST trans women are not predators. But men and trans women are males who pose a threat to females no matter what you think or what you want to say and no matter how they identify." - you
That same argument could be used to discriminate against any minority. You say every, EVERY transwoman is a potential rapist and you strip them of their rights, while they havent even done anything.
The same problem exists with male teachers. ONLY the men are seen as a threat around kids.
You dont see any problem with your opinion? Your world view is based on prejudice.
I've only heard of two, maybe three cases of this. I don't see any evidence that shows that trans people are committing these crimes at a rate higher than cis people. If you don't, then I'm going to assume this is some kind of agenda post.
I think this is "why is it trans women instead of trans men" not "why is it trans people instead of cis people."
That has fuckall to do with what I said.
Just fyi I don't think they're going to go out of business. It's a super popular spot in LA and most people have no idea this is going on.
it is not "always people who identify as trans women" acting perverted, it's that those cases become well known because people love using them as outrage fuel to justify transphobia, while stories of non-celebrity cis sex offenders don't get that traction.
**Notice.** Be mindful that TERFS and opponents to trans rights can still view this sub. Posts from this sub have been linked to GC spaces, so be aware of that before you post anything that might be publicly identifying or potentially embarrassing.
Just perhaps might not the concept of claimed *"gender identity"* being all that is legally required for anyone to enter male or female dressing rooms be an ideal way for people who are predatory to gain access?
After all, how can courts punish someone who claims to *"identify a woman"* (and thus must legally be considered a woman) for being naked in a women's locker room? Even if that person is a sex offender and has a penis?
I've always said "Self ID" isn't sustainable.
Social, medical and legal transition should be required to access the opposite genders more sensitive spaces IMO.
Predators aren’t going to go on HRT cause they want their male parts to work.
And it's just basic common courtesy for those who are pre-SRS to be Very Very mindful of their conduct. I didn't even consider going anywhere that there was even the possibility of nudity as a pre-op.
Because HRT is *not* going to change primary sexual characteristics. Only surgery can.
I know the community is against gatekeepers but..... This is what the H. B. Standards were trying to prevent. If someone had a severe history of mental health issues, they'd put you through therapy to find out if transition was correct for you
Not all of the community..
I mean I'd also like to note that the media just likes to focus on the negativity that humanity brings out.
I should start off by saying that the Spa incident was found to be completely fake and fabricated by Transphobes as a psyop. There was no trans person who came in that day. It’s all fake and made up. Don’t fall for it.
Second of all, there aren’t really that many, just the normal amount.
It’s unreasonable to expect zero criminals in the trans community. The trans community is just like any other community and all communities have a criminal element.
So that just makes the trans community a normal community.
It being a hoax was a hoax
I don't have time to read any articles right now but is the person's crime that they were nude at a nude spa, and happened to have a penis, or were they walking around with an erection
That’s not proof that it wasn’t a hoax. Just because they have arrested someone doesn’t mean they were actually there at the spa or that they did anything wrong.
If they are actually convicted that would be a different story.
The fact that they filed charges indicates the police had probable cause that she was there and was responsible for whatever happened. Again, doesn't mean she's definitely guilty, but it's more likely than not.
Of course this doesn't excuse bigots using this as a political football, but the facts are what they are.
Well, I guess we’ll find out what the facts are after the trial.
[No in the article that broke the story they admitted to being at the spa](https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/)
Its just a hot topic media in the US. The Right failed hard with Trump and Covid in America so they need a new boogieman to scare people into voting. This is basically culture war shit
There aren't many cases, it's just that the media and transphobes blow the few cases up way out of proportion, to attempt to justify their narrative that it's some widespread issue.
It's ridiculous that people fall for this. A case or two of a transgender woman being predatory is not too surprising. Why? Because transgender women are a group of people, and in any group of people, there will always be a small percentage of predators, sadly.
Transphobes want to push the narrative that the predatory nature of these trans women individuals is inherently linked to them being transgender. Don't fall for it. They are just a small percentage, and do not represent transgender women at large at all.
Yep. They do the exact same thing to every other minority they want to oppress.
Is it not obvious? Any sex offender will legally identify as female.
I find it really annoying that people call this person trans, when it is clearly a man. The spa people stood there and looked stupid, they did nothing because they assumed it was a transwoman instead of actually checking it out. I mean a man was exposing himself and they did nothing. I knew all along from when I saw the vid that it was a man, but idiots assumed it was a trans for no fucking reason. It pisses me off. It annoyed me that people called a random person transgender when it was no evidence to suggest so.
If you're a transgirl between 15 and 25 don't think for a second that a sex offender that identify will not rape you.
I read they got a legal sex change, but still had a D. How is that even possible?
There is 0 requirement to change legal sex. So sex offenders start to identify as women the instant the police knocks on their door.
Legal sex can be changed nowadays without surgery in some places
If it's obvious that any sex offender will legally identify as female, why are there legally male sex offenders?
because OP is entirely full of shit lol
Do you have a link to the video? The photo I seen of her looked like a woman
You mean the vid that got viral months ago, with no transwomen in it?
You have already seen it.
"Why is it always trans women?"?
It doesn't seem like there are actually a ton of predatory trans women out there. Maybe we're heading about a *few* predatory trans women and *no* predatory trans men because this is barely a thing that's happening at all. The predatory trans women thus far seem like flukes to me.
As trans people are more and more accepted, we will probably see more predatory trans people -- because a small percentage of PEOPLE are predatory, not because being trans makes you predatory. Maybe then we can start analyzing if certain types of trans people are somewhat more likely to be predatory than others. Maybe then we will see a substantial number of predatory cis men pretending to be women. But I really don't think we have the data for it right now.
I think the main contention is that compared to cis men, trans women aren't especially predatory. But we want to compare them to cis women, who have very few predators, and that's why this is so contentious
Not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying that a greater proportion of trans women are predators than cis women? Or you think this *might* be the case? I think it's plausible but don't think we currently have the data.
As far as I can tell there's only [one study](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885) that looked at this question. It offers support for /u/SouthernYoghurt9's assertion. However, that study is quite old (it concluded in 2003), looks at all violent crime and not just sexual predation, and only included medically transitioned binary trans people from Sweden - hardly a representative sample of the whole trans community.
The author of this study says, regarding using the study to "show" that trans women have male patterns of criminality:
>The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.
I find this to be pretty important when talking about this study. It seems to have been a behaviour pattern of the past (tho again we only have one study so any claims should be taken with a grain of salt) and there could be various reasons for it, for example more aggressive mistreatment by society might've forced trans women into acting more criminally obtaining "male patterns" that way.
We don't have any indication that this is still an ongoing phenomena
I appreciate you looking up this info and sharing it.
Gender is one of my autistic special interests \^_\^
I wonder if the main issue isn't about predatory transwomen at all, but **men who** ***claim*** **they are trans in order to engage in predatory behaviors.** Sex offenders have some creepy ways of gaining access to victims and they certainly won't hesitate to take this new route.
Men and people who have gone through male puberty have always been more like to be predators. It doesn't mean men=bad, just that 1+ million years of evolutionary pressure/natural selection has tended to discourage genes that encode for sexually violent or sexually predatory behaviors in females.
It is worthwhile to make a distinction between transwomen and men who claim trans identity. It might not be an easy distinction to make but it will be crucial to do so moving forward or we will have more and stories of so-called-transwoman predators.
Will you pick up something peaty while you're off looking for a true Scotsman?
So, there's just a ton of naturally transwomen who are sex offenders, and the high number of those wanting housing in female prisons are because transwomen simply have high rates of sexual predation?
And to say that sexual predators will use this to gain access to victims is a no-true-Scotsman argument, and not reality?
Why would you think sex offenders would *not* try to gain access to women's spaces? Because of their highly ethical moral boundaries?
It was a trans man who tried to cover up the wi spa incident. You're right though there's a trend here, the other big one recently was CWC who raped his 80 year old mother
The name of the "convicted sex offender" isn't in the california sex offender registry under any variation or deadname and the original reporter was Andy Ngo who has previously spread misinformation and shopped images to lie about antifa.
Where did you find this information about "a trans man covering it up" and can I see a source please?
I have yet to see an actual source on this that isn't a poorly shopped "wanted" poster or a repost from the original Ngo story
The cover up is nearly as bad imo. The trans community looks like some kind of rapist cult now for spending weeks trying to gaslight the transphobes. We would be so much better off to just disown these people then pretend those women didn't get assaulted/harrassed. Its seriously misogynistic to tell women who were assaulted that they are just delusional and making it up
Yup this makes the trans community (at least the MTF community) look like a bunch of dudes with autogynephilia who just want to dominate women and overpower them in practically every aspect of life. It feels very much like a “even men are better at being women than women are” mentality.
Those creeps need to be stopped. How did we end up here? They shouldn't have been allowed to call themselves 'trans women' when they're in fact predatory crazy men.
Depathologizing being trans is what led us here.
Laws are being passed to give transsexuals equal rights but they are letting bad actors slip through the cracks cause the definition of what a trans person is has been heavily altered.
Yes, and who warned about the risks? Transmedicalists. But no one listened to us.
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But how long will this take? Feels like it's already too late.
I don't know about there being "so many cases", but there sure is a media narrative
These Psychos aren't trans they're the reason science and gatekeeping matter
> gatekeeping matter
yikes horrible take, gatekeeping of lifesaving HRT medication is bad there is no real way to "test" if someone is "actually trans" or not. In germany where this sort of dumb shit is still required the "experts" tasked with making these distinctions have said as much an adviced the government to scrape that dumb requirement.
Gatekeepers are why pedos aren’tpart of lgbt+ wtf are you talking about, not every person who wants to be part of the community is part of it
What is the science behind gatekeeping? We don't use any type of brain MRI or CT scans to find dysphoria. Gatekeeping will just set us back to the 70's and 80's where only cis/hetero normative trans people will get healthcare
Trans people can do bad stuff
Finding out whether someone is really gender incongruent is important if you want to weed out the creepy predators.
Okay then how do we do it without hurting other trans people? People say we need to weed out trans people but no one can give a good answer on how?
Disavow fetishism and call out predators wherever they come up and convince people trans is normal not try and inevitably fail to convince people normal is bad
So what counts as "fetishism"? Being gay or bi? (historically gay or bi trans people weren't allowed to transition is that what you want to go back to?) Being into bdsm or doing sex work? Not passing? Being disabled? Being old or "ugly"?
Because that's who I see the pro pathologisation terf bootlickers attacking under the guise of 'weeding out faker-sorry I mean "fetishists"' and loads of those attacks the stalking and harassment against those people has been disturbingly sexual in nature
so to me it seems like there are A LOT of sexual predators in the transmed community who know that they're more likely to get away with attacking victims who have less power and are less likely to be sympathised with or believed *cough nonbinary people being raped at the highest rates and how this interacts with the "nonbinary people= just wanting attention" transphobia
like you lot don't give a fuck about us trans survivors - loads of us are people you'd want to label as "fetishists who make us look bad" do trans survivors only matter when you think they're attractive? and if that's the case why are y'all pretending your "kick out the unfuckable transes so big cis daddy will love us and give us rights" bullshit is about protecting people from predators.
Wow you really need to interact with people before you judge them cuz you are full of it. Fetishism is these people into screwing their pets kids cartoons or children themselves paraphilias with clear harm people you with your catgenders Loligender and animesexuals absolutely support. We just support the identification of transsexualism as being rooted in science not metaphysics. Which since souls are imaginary whether female or male, just means caring about logic and how to progress as transsexuals and as enbies and cis gnc people who somehow your ideology all call the same and use that to demonize necessary health care as “self hatred” because we don’t want to have or even hear”girldick”
Pot kettle, What the fuck are YOU talking about?
A fetish isn't the same as a paraphillia. Someone into shoes or being spanked isn't the same as a pedophile.
"loligender" and "anime sexual" are literally troll terms from 4chan that ended up being adopted by actual creeps like the whole "map" shit and anyone using them is already rejected by the trans community because being a pedo and being trans are clearly different things unless you're a terf or pedo apologist (which loads of terfs are)
Are you trying to argue that its a slippery slope between allowing nonbinary people to exist (which we do and have done forever) and accepting child abusers who do demonstrable harm and cause trauma to children who by definition cannot consent ?
If so Fuck right off with that it's disgusting and fucked up on so many levels and I have yet to see any proof or logic behind this apart from "predators are gross and I think nonbinary people are gross so they must all be predators" which is just transphobic and erases the fucking huge amount of nonbinary survivors
- like I had a cis adult try unsuccessfully to groom me as an egg and what helped him do that without me reporting at the time was how fucking isolated i was with no trans community and how uncomfortable I felt talking to authority figures after being blamed for being bullied for being visibly queer like trans people often are- how does ostracising nonbinary kids protect them? Or are you happy for nonbinary youth to be abused to make you feel more valid?
You're the one who brought up "girl dick" unprompted and pushed it into a conversation here while accusing me of doing what you are doing - this is what I'm talking about the projection is fucking wild
Everyone has fetishes and I think its okay if trans people practice them in private or with consenting members. But everything you've said is already being done since forever
>Everyone has fetishes
Speak for yourself.
Not all fetishes are explicit or even taboo.
FYI, there are over 329 fetishes. So unless you have the most vanilla heterosexual sex ever and not attracted to any body part of a man or a woman you probably have one.
Not sure exactly what point you're trying to make. People latch onto incidents like this because it reinforces their own bigotry. There's tons of cis people who are fucking crazy. People just choose to believe trans people are all perverted degenerates and then circulate this shit to try validate their shitty beliefs. It's that simple. Same reason any news story involving a minority blows up. People can then point to it and say "why are they all like this???"
Humanity has always had a very "us vs. them" mentality and these are just attempts to blame the world's problems on the most convenient scapegoat. They're different and so they must be the problem.
For the same reasons media always focussed on gay men rather than lesbians. They still see you as male, and feminine men are seen as something bad and perverted so they will hyper focus on any crime that happens.
Because male spaces aren't as private/protected, nor are they as politically charged when considering transpeople?
This post reeks of blame. Don't associate me with the actions of some criminal out there. It isn't about the fact that they were a transwoman, it's about the fact that they were a shitty person. "Why is it always transwomen" oh come on, shut up.
That could explain why there's less talk about trans men doing this stuff, but doesn't really cover enbies. I haven't really seen any stories about enbies running wild in female spaces. Plus, if a trans man was showing his coochy in a mens spa, or sexually harassing cis minors, I feel like we'd still hear about it lol
I mean, *would* we hear about it? The media is famous for not sharing trans men in stories, good nor bad. Transwomen in the media have bad representation, but transmen have *nothing*. Plus, you can't pretend like people aren't more offended by a penis than they are by a vagina. There is a dynamic different in social situations, and you can't pretend like there isn't. I mean, there should be no different, but I just don't see a group of men getting uncomfortable by a preop transman, at least on the same level as the vise versa. Also, spas are generally a thing that are marketed to women, especially the kind of spas where people would be getting undressed, so the stars aligning for a transman to flash a group of men is made more unlikely.
Flashing genitalia of any kind is always wrong, no matter what, but you have to admit that people see penises as more R-rated than vaginas.
There was a very popular news story about a cis woman in NYC flashing her coochie to security cameras. Her story got more attention than the dozens of male NYC flashers, because it seems to be a lot rarer for a female to do it. This for cis people, but it's the only point of reference I can think of
This is a false equivalence, but I appreciate the story, I'll look into it.
It's not, the media just focuses on trans women more because they're looking for stories that support their narrative.
I don't think there's any hope of trans people getting equal rights in America because of this incident. There will pretty much be an influx of trans immigrants from America to places like Canada, Western Europe (not including the UK), Australia, and New Zealand if COVID doesn't become a permanent pandemic, at least.
How sheltered are you? The only place with better trans rights and tolerance than the US is probably Spain.
Malta, France, Canada, Netherlands, Portugal, New Zealand, Australia...
Not really. If youre purely talking about rights and ability to transition then informed consent definitely gives the US a leg up, but as far as how youre treated by society half of europe is probably ahead of the US.
This. I'm from Montreal (Canada) and what I've been through is nowhere nearly as bad as what our americans sibblings often have to go through.
Oh, I get the occasional non physical violence (verbal violence/abuse, insults, death stares, etc.) and nearly had to fight to protect myself a few times but I often read stories that are much worse than what I've been through and I've already read thousands of those stories. I don't have scientific evidence to prove it but I think we have it a little bit better here in Canada. By "better" I mean "not as bad" (because it's bad everywhere).
You have to go to the Parries if you want that good old fashion transphobia there is a reason why all the gays move to toronto and quebec
You're right. I've heard about this too.
1. the definition of "transness" was changed to solely revolve around identity such that literally anyone who says they're a trans woman counts as a trans woman, including literal cis male predators
2. AFAB people pushed the idea that bodies shouldn't matter to identity without adding the obvious caveat that this kinda only really practically applies to AFAB people because of the way they're "invisible" (in other words, nonthreatening)
3. AFAB people catch none of the larger backlash for the inevitable consequences of this stuff (in this instance, because nobody cares about what happens to cis men who happen to see your ">!boy pussy!<" in men's spaces lol) so the usual self-correction mechanism for promoting this kind of stupid shit doesn't really exist on the FTM side of things.
And this is what I call the Trans Stupid Shit Cycle™, where you have primarily AFAB people constantly pushing the envelope on what "liberation" actually looks like for trans people (because true liberation is being unnoticed, because invisibility \*IS\* freedom for trans people), and trans women getting all the backlash for this, leading to AFAB people pushing the envelope even further because they face no consequences for pushing the envelope.
See also: the way trans women catch all the flak for the whole "pregnant person" contrivance.
As a transsexual man who began transition before "transgender identity" became stupidly politicized in the West, I agree with everything you wrote, and I am deeply sorry that trans women have to hold the bag. It shouldn't be this way. Many things have gone wrong. The "gender revolutionaries" in Women's and Gender Studies departments who make this "identity" shit up are hard to distinguish from TERFs at times.
Thanks. I definitely feel your last sentence hard too, part of the reason why this sub has been so eye-opening, lol.
While the "bodies don't matter" crap being pushed is a valid concern I don't think refocusing transness on bodies would help with keeping predators out. Sure it'd help with the particular problem of "don't wanna see penis". But having a female body does not automatically make a predator harmless. A post-op Yaniv hosting the naked pool party would still be a pedo. A post-op Chris chan would still be a rapist. The problem with trying to justify transness with bodies to distance ourselves from criminals is that it only works until the media finds a passable post-op trans woman breaking the law.
I don't believe either that anybody who claims to be trans is trans but I think the focus should be on intent and motive for transition, rather than level of success. And I can't really pin the blame solely on quirky cis women and all the academic trans circlejerking by/about them ; there's a fair number of late mtf transitioners who try to keep a foot in each boats so to speak, trying to transition but also remain The Man in a way.
Eidt: I also think it's very insenstive to talk about how there's no corrective mechanism because "nobody cares about what happens to cis men who happen to see your "boy pussy" in men's spaces". Trans women know damn well what happens/can happen when men's spaces have an 'outsider'; their first instinct is definitely not complaining to the reception or calling the cops lol.
I mean I'm not under the delusion that trans people collectively are perfect angels. And it's not fundamentally about some notion that like, only post-op women should be allowed in sex-segregated spaces. It's about a very noticeable lack of common sense in how people navigate the contradictions of our existence, that simply did not exist when I started transitioning (even among later transitioners), and IMO is directly related to this notion of that sex and gender are these completely separate things. Because even post-op women have been in that position of being pre-op and navigating women's spaces (like bathrooms) where people aren't expecting to ever see a penis. And it's almost like between the stuff about "sex and gender are different" and the greater visibility of trans issues, people are expecting that to ever change. And it's just... not. Seeing a penis in women's spaces is never going to be normalized, because trans women are never going to be the norm, by sheer numbers alone. And there seems to be this idea that it will, and it's just... baffling.
And obviously trans guys understand the consequences of people seeing a visible vulva in those spaces: it's literally the reason why cis society isn't worried about it happening. That's why I specified "larger backlash".
> Seeing a penis in women's spaces is never going to be normalized, because trans women are never going to be the norm, by sheer numbers alone.
I don't think that's a good argument, frequency can't be the only component to normalization. No one would argue that seeing redheads in women's spaces can never be normalized because they're such a small proportion of the population. It's normalized because we recognize that some people have red hair, even though it's not that many people. I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but trans women being less common doesn't mean normalization is impossible.
"Redhead" is a neutral quantity when it comes to gender and sex: it has nothing to do with how we "assign" sex or gender. Whereas 99% of the people who have penises are men, and 99% of women don't have penises.
It's not *just* that women infrequently have penises: it's that nearly all the people who do have penises are cis men.
This post is so steeped in misogyny I could honestly make tea with it.
I think the irony of posting this on a topic that uses the behavior of a few jerks (who may not even be trans women) to make broad generalizations about trans women is kinda hilarious.
But then this is how the bullshit works, right? The people here feel free to make broad generalizations about trans women using concepts like "male socialization" and we're supposed to just sit here and accept it because "that's just reality idk." But make any broad generalization about "AFAB people" and it's somehow it's automatically ALWAYS misogyny 🤷♀️
I never said I agreed with OP and in fact I entirely disagree with the point they're trying to make.
No one ever lets those kinds of generalizations slide and you know it because you just saw one happen in the FTM underrepresentation thread on the front page. Don't even fucking try and equate the two, transmisogyny is like the #2 word on this sub and any time someone makes a gross generalization about trans women it is ALWAYS called out. And usually, and ironically, anyone SUPPORTING such assertions is a trans woman themselves.
And yeah it IS misogyny to say that about AFAB people because guess what, you're viewing them as women. Your whole post reeks of "those nasty attention seeking AFABs changed our community and we get blamed for everything bad" which is nicely encapsulated by your pregnant people line. Guess what - trans women INSERT themselves into those discussions (with plenty of reminders about "you shouldn't say women because not all women get pregnant!!!"). See: Charlotte Clymer, or everyone arguing that the Texas abortion ban will disproportionately affect trans women over trans men.
And I'm fucking sorry, this is NOT the first time I've seen you make comments like that. Your derogatory "boy pussy" shot is disgusting and you've made similar comments before, and you completely make light of the danger that non passing trans men face going into men's spaces like bathrooms. Brandon Teena ring a bell? Don't fucking make comments about other trans people's genitals especially to degrade them just because you have some kind of weird bone to pick with trans people who aren't trans women.
>I never said I agreed with OP and in fact I entirely disagree with the point they're trying to make.
Would have been nice if that was your first post here instead of chewing me out 🤷♀️
> transmisogyny is like the #2 word on this sub
Usually by people trying to claim "transmisogyny" doesn't actually exist, lol
>you're viewing them as women.
No, I'm saying society views them as women, and society views us as men, which is why we wind up catching all the backlash: because you're viewed as weak and helpless and thus nonthreatening, while we're viewed as aggressive rapists who ARE a threat. Hence, the mere presence of a penis in women spaces being unconscionable regardless of what it's doing, whereas nobody even giving a second thought to how men might feel about seeing an exposed vulva in a male space.
That's just the reality of our existence. Which is why 20 years this "identity" BS only existed on the FTM side of things: because nobody cares how you "identify" if you look and sound like an adult man. As incidents like this demonstrate, "identity" only gets a trans woman so far. There's a reason why people are so desperate to pass, and miserable if they don't.
>Guess what - trans women INSERT themselves into those discussions
As allies, because that's what they think they're "supposed" to do. Same goes for cis women who try to push it. But the whole topic isn't even aimed at helping us, and yet we catch all the backlash for it.
>And I'm fucking sorry, this is NOT the first time I've seen you make comments like that.
Glad you're keeping tabs on me, lol.
I made an extremely tongue-in-cheek joke about defending the sanctity of "bussy" as a man's asshole like a week ago, but as far as I'm aware I don't actually really use that term because I find both that term and "girldick" silly at best, and counterproductive at worst.
And I only have a problem with "trans people who aren't trans women" to the extent that the thin-skinned people here feel entitled to run their mouths about trans women using whatever jargon or weasel words they want, but then cry foul whenever it's "their group" that's getting shit on. Because if nothing else, this sub has a lot of people who can dish it out but can't take it, and I'm pretty of tired of the hypocrisy, quite frankly.
>Would have been nice if that was your first post here instead of chewing me out 🤷♀️
Other people in this thread have made the exact points I would have about hyperfocus on trans women being the root of this problem. I've made plenty of posts about how we can condemn bad apples in the community without resorting to transmisogyny and blaming all trans women. Don't fucking try and move the goalposts with some virtue signaling.
>No, I'm saying society views them as women, and society views us as men, which is why we wind up catching all the backlash: because you're viewed as weak and helpless and thus nonthreatening, while we're viewed as aggressive rapists who ARE a threat.
No, YOU clearly do, because you insinuate that the "identity" thing ONLY came from the "FTM side" of things. Then you talk about all of the non passing trans women and completely disregard that many of those non passing tans women advocated for the identity arguments because it helps them be accepted into women's spaces and get the respect they should have. You make the identity qualifier out to be some attention seeking argument and ignore that a lot of non passing trans people pushed for it because despite surgery and hormones and things some people WILL NEVER pass and yet they should be accepted in and viewed with their target sex.
>I made an extremely tongue-in-cheek joke about defending the sanctity of "bussy" as a man's asshole like a week ago,
And it was also you who like 2 days ago was talking about how "transmascs" with their "boytiddies" were too prevalent in trans male spaces. Don't act like it's not a pattern of behavior.
>And I only have a problem with "trans people who aren't trans women" to the extent that the thin-skinned people here feel entitled to run their mouths about trans women whatever jargon or weasel words they want, but then cry foul whenever it's "their group" that's getting shit on.
Nice of you to completely ignore the point that whenever trans women get shit on, like in this post or the male socialization arguments, it's literally hacked to death and called out within seconds. Meanwhile there's tons of stuff like your bussy and boytiddy and "theyfabs" and your whole assertion that the AFAB portions of the trans community are responsible for all the problems just float on by til they get called out on. People call out tramsisogyny when it happens on this sub. Consequently they're not good at recognizing any other kind of transphobia.
>No, YOU clearly do, because you insinuate that the "identity" thing ONLY came from the "FTM side" of things.
Because that's the only place you'd find it 20 years ago. Literally nobody cared about identity in trans women's spaces for the precisely the reasons I laid out, and "gender" was just what was in your head that caused you to need to transition. Only time it meant anything beyond that was on the FTM side of things from the people who started out immersed in feminist BS.
And nothing about the way people nowadays talk about trans women in terms of constantly reducing us to our birth sex or equating us to cis men with terms like "male socialization" indicates any kind of "respect" for our womanhood. Like saying "trans women are women" and referring to us with she/her pronouns doesn't really mean shit if we're also constantly getting lumped in with cis men because "sex and gender are different." It's actually the central reason why I hate modern discourse so much.
>And it was also you who like 2 days ago was talking about how "transmascs" with their "boytiddies" were too prevalent in trans male spaces.
No, I pointed to a specific phenomenon that lead to the creation of a sub for dysphoric trans men who SPECIFICALLY don't want to hear about their anatomy being referred to that way. It's literally spelled out in rule 3 of the sidebar of r/ftmmen, go read it for yourself if you don't believe me.
>Nice of you to completely ignore the point that whenever trans women get shit on, like in this post or the male socialization arguments, it's literally hacked to death and called out within seconds.
Like those "male socialization" comments/posts don't get upvoted to hell, like you're not going HAM on me right now and *won't* get highly upvoted for it in all likelihood, lol.
Hm, I disagree with the notion that gay trans men aren't punished for being gay trans men. Maybe we don't make the news, but I have been called a rapist multiple times just for existing and gay spaces are popping up that explicitly disallow trans men from joining. See: the jockstrap ceiling debacle too
I also disagree with the notion that invisibility is liberation, because the needs of both trans men and trans women are largely invisible and it's not helping either of us.
>the definition of "transness" was changed to solely revolve around identity such that literally anyone who says they're a trans woman counts as a trans woman, including literal cis male predators
Indeed, which is ridiculous. I'm a woman because I am one and have always been. It's not a fucking 'identity' such as a hobby or dressing up or a culture or anything like that.
When did you transform? When were the magic words uttered aloud? You super duper special important women need to talk some sense. There are sexual predators locked into women's prison cells. They say that they are the same as you. We will stop it. In the mean time you will look at this and think rapists should be locked in a room with a woman. You're cool. It's good as it is, yes?
These sexual predators are not trans women. They're male predators.
That's not true. She said she was trans so she is trans. Do we believe the word of trans women or not? Are you trans? How do we know?
You are not stupid so you stop pretending to be unable to grasp basic logic.
>She said she was trans so she is trans.
This isn't tumblr or twitter so you, a cis person should cut it out with this crap.
>Do we believe the word of trans women or not? Are you trans? How do we know?
Read the top level comment. You're not illiterate so stop pretending to be unable to read.
There is no way around this discussion. It's a real conflict of rights and we have to face it. Do women have the right to single sex spaces? I say we do. You think we don't. What do we do? Where do we go from here?
I don't care what your hate infested brain thinks or why you are such a creep caring so much about other women's genitals. I will simply use the spaces that I see as appropriate for myself and I don't give a fuck how a terf like you feels about that.
Good luck with that.
No luck needed for that.
The battle is over. Trans women ARE women. Gatekeeping IS problematic and thus Self ID IS the law. Women (both Cis AND Trans) are allowed to be naked in public changing rooms - this is not debatable. Time to accept it and move on honey.
This is not established law. As you leftists are fond of saying, the "law" is what the peoe in power say it is. Beware the pendulum of time.
So you admit you are an unhinged right-wing lunatic? Shocking!
>Do women have the right to single sex spaces?
>You think we don't
Ask. Don't assume.
>Where do we go from here?
I'd suggest a spa that does not explicitly advertise itself as "trans friendly"? It seems to me what you want is not cisgender only spaces, but a world where there are no trans inclusive spaces.
>It's not a fucking 'identity'
But it is? Google says:
the fact of being who or what a person or thing is.
It wasn't always like that, that's the point... and google itself is not a good source of information.
Please present me a better source then.
And why isnt google a good source when looking for a simple definition?
Google can lead you to quite a few sources that you can weigh against each other, but google itself is not a source. You can't just look at the first result and say that's your answer with something like this you have to think for yourself. How did you not learn this in school?
1. We are still talking about a simple definition.
2. We are on reddit and not in school. I writing a comment on a reddit post and not a paper.
All you did was:
1. Telling my that Im wrong.
2. Telling my that my sources arent valid.
3. Trying to invalidate my education, because of a definition of identity.
You on the other hand failed to correct me. Just saying that Im wrong doesnt make you right.
No. Lots of woke transphobia is rooted in its 2nd definition, which does not have anything to do with being trans:
*a close similarity or affinity*
That doesnt invalidate the first definition. My passport doesnt describe someone similar to me (hopefully). I have identified my gender as female. Thus Im a trans woman. This is my identity. The same goes for you. We have nothing else, but our identity, to validate our gender.
When people use "identity" for gender, they usually refer to the first definition and you cant tell them, what definition they have been using.
I think it’s because the connotation of identifying as something makes it seem like a choice and it’s not *really* what you are. Like you never hear cis people saying they identify as a man or a woman, it’s always “I am a man/woman.” Or similarly, I don’t identify as someone with brown hair, or brown eyes or whatever else, I just am.
I get that this connotation exists. I never argued otherwise. I just said that the expression itself is not wrong.
Sure, I’m just explaining how some people feel about it.
But the concept of identity isn't something that is necessarily innate, which is the reason I am not a fan of saying I 'identify' as female.
Is it not the validity of self-identification that is being questioned?
This guy, (yes *guy*, & convicted sex offender) flashes his/her semi-erect penis in a private space reserved for women only. He/she self-identifies as "trans" so the spa is legally required to allow him/her(?)access.
How can this not be a problem?
It is a problem, that's why I'm pro gatekeeping.
Agreed. It's helpful when there are at least some adults in the room.
I dont like saying it either, but as far as I can tell it is true. It feels hard saying that Im "only" identifying as a woman, but without it I would have nothing. Id rather kill myself, than loose my identity.
The massive damage being done to the trans community is largely from the trans community itself defending these people on the sole basis of being trans, and continuing to do so even after more evidence appears. The trans community should be first people to kick out sex criminals and perverts but instead they knee-jerk defend them just because their trans, and ignore all evidence against the person and the story all together when the truth becomes too uncomfortable to face.
That is not accurate though. By the mainstream trans narrative standards, the spa person did nothing wrong really. They are a trans woman who used women-only spaces in an unapologetic way.
Honestly, this. Cis people were told that self ID would not cause any problems, everyone would be totally safe, and there was nothing to fear.
Now this Wi Spa incident has resulted in 4 or 5 people who have had an uncomfortable or frightening experience with a trans person in an intimate space and millions of people watched it all unfold, and instead of the trans community being like “fuck that person”, the accusers were called liars with some people going so far as to say that there had probably never been a trans person there at all. Then, when an arrest was made, the convicted sex offender has still received a ton of support from the people within the trans community.
The conversation *could* be “Holy fuck, this person exploited self ID for their own gain. I’m sorry that these women were made to feel afraid. Let’s work out how to prevent that from happening again”, but instead it’s “The women were probably lying and if they weren’t lying, so what? People are creeps sometimes.”
So the message this sends is “Sometimes self ID *will* in fact result in people being harmed, but whatever, get over it.” The lack of empathy is unnerving, tbh.
I mean this is a pretty disingenuous framing of the issue, tbh. The response to the original video was centered around finding out that one of the people making accusations in the video was (apparently) an anti-LGBT conservative activist, who was visiting a spa that bills itself as LGBT-friendly, filming herself screaming at the spa staff spouting off transphobic nonsense about how trans women don't exist, while it was reported that the spa itself was saying they had no record of a trans woman actually being there that day. That's a far cry from simply calling that person a liar. And really, the absolute shitshow that ensued with the protests and a random ass trans woman not even connected to the incident getting the full "reddit boston marathon" treatment from the right wing nutjobs should indicate why people's first instinct is to close ranks rather than "let’s work out how to prevent that from happening again." Because what do you think the right wingers who latch onto this incident while denying that "rape culture" exists think the answer to that question is?
I will allow room for the initial skepticism before recent evidence came to light. But now that we *know* that a person who has a dick, who has previously been accused of flashing that dick at people without consent, did in fact exist and was in the location where the incident occurred, why is this person *still* receiving support from many in the trans community, including people in this very thread? Self ID is built on trust, and when that trust is broken by a sexual predator, closing ranks around them sends the message that yeah, sometimes self ID *will* result in people being harmed, and tough shit for the person who gets hurt, I guess.
Edit to add: I just don’t understand why this person is the hill to die on, I don’t understand why the safety and comfort of *everyone* isn’t more of a priority, and I don’t understand how this stark lack of empathy is supposed to do anything at all to foster goodwill between the LGBT community and the general public. It seems self-sabotaging as fuck.
It's not this person being the hill people want to die on: they just see the person breaking the story now is serial bullshit artist Andy "antifa cement milkshakes" Ngo and recognize what's going on, while not knowing how respond to it because they spend so much time locked up in their echo chambers talking about "gender" or "cisnormativity" or whatever that they forgot how the rest of the world works, lol. Rightoids are adept at milking shit well beyond its baseline outrage potential (remember "partial birth abortions"?) and the framing of trans people's existence nowadays is too caught up in various kinds of feminist bullshitting to understand how to formulate a coherent response to it.
I suppose I can see how all of those factors + groupthink would lead us to where we are now, so I appreciate your insight. I do maintain that it’s a bad look for the trans community and the LGBT community as a whole, though.
Oh it's definitely a bad look regardless. Like I can at least understand people being reticent about outright saying "if you have a dick, keep it to yourself" because of how conservative activists might try to take that and run with it and/or the way that mentality may be weaponized against trans women who are legitimately doing everything in their power to keep it to themselves. But I've seen this topic elsewhere previously being framed as expecting pre/non-op trans women to be "ashamed of their bodies" or whatever and like... even just 10 years ago (maybe even less), the most hugboxy, "everyone is valid" space cadets among trans women weren't anywhere nearly as aggressively braindead about the reality of the situation. I said it elsewhere, but there's just flagrant lack of common sense about the problem at hand.
So you don’t think, “If you have a dick, keep it to yourself,” is a reasonable request? Or are you saying that this blanket rule would be used to punish a trans person who had a legit wardrobe malfunction or something?
Edit: Also, fuck the “everyone is valid” crew. They’re currently trying to make “bi lesbians” and “lesbian = non-men loving non-men” happen.
The latter. I think "keep it to yourself" is not only an extremely reasonable request, but just plain ol' common sense. If for no other reason, then the whole affair here demonstrating what's going to happen if you don't.
Yeah the "non-men" stuff is just cringe and ridiculous, and I imagine deeply insulting to most lesbians to have their existence defined using men as a baseline.
Ahh yes, then we agree. I question the motives of any trans person who happily shows their genitals knowing that they’re going to make people uncomfortable, tbh. I hope that’s not a shitty attitude to have, but my trans and nb friends irl would probably rather drown themselves in the spa rather than wave their parts around. So when a person has no problem, I’m kinda confused and suspicious because it’s so unlike the trans people I actually know.
Yeah, it’s homophobic and misogynistic at the same time. I’m not a “non-man” and I don’t date “non-men”, I’m a woman and I’m stoked to be one.
I agree. I don't understand whatsoever why other trans people defend them. Like for example with Chris Chan, everyone defended them because pronouns and forgot they raped their mother. Their fucking mother. Pronouns are such a secondary thing. They're not a right anyhow
Chris Chan is a weird situation - an autistic person psychologically bullied for years.
That doesn't excuse rape