Ontario science table says vaccine certificates could be used to speed up reopening of high-risk settings
By - TheColorOfDeadMen
Your post was removed for breaking rule 1, as the news was posted already.
The examples they give of "high-risk settings that could reopen sooner" include some that are already reopened- indoor dining, gyms, etc.
That's not exactly what the Science Table said.
> On a short-term basis, vaccine certificates could enable the re-opening of high-risk settings sooner **and/or at increased capacity.** Vaccine certificates will be of particular importance to maintain economic and societal reopening if public health measures need to be reintroduced. Some jurisdictions are also implementing vaccine certificates with the goal of incentivizing COVID-19 vaccination.
The full report is here: https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/sciencebrief/covid-19-vaccine-certificates-key-considerations-for-the-ontario-context/
EDIT: It should also be noted that they stated the vaccine passports could be used to keep the economy open during future waves driven seasonally or from new variants of concern.
> COVID-19 vaccine certificates may have a practical short-term utility for supporting and maintaining economic and societal reopening. In the longer-term, vaccine certificates may be useful as verifiable, secure, standardized, and accessible electronic or paper records of immunization. Further, given the anticipated seasonality of SARS-CoV-2 as well as the possibility of additional variants of concerns, establishing the infrastructure for COVID-19 vaccine certification may be useful if public health measures need to be reintroduced during future potential waves.
EDITx2: And the short term benefits listed about these businesses/services operating at higher capacities is only one small aspect of this report. It's more comprehensive dealing with various aspects like ethical concerns, accessibility, and required low risk businesses (like grocery stores) that need to be exempt. It also compares implementations in other jurisdictions. It's very much about placing regulations and guidelines so that businesses and organizations don't implement poor policies that are damaging to people and society.
But if things flare up again we can keep the anti vaxers out.
Meanwhile, in Malta.
"We are definitely against vaccine passports. However vaccine certificates sound like a good idea." - Doug Ford, maybe.
Much like the federal conservatives, who hate the carbon tax rebate but are cool with a points card.
"We're not against the rebate as long as we control how you spend it"
And in most cases, incapable of spending it.
But wait some redditors might make up hypothetical reasons this won’t work so let’s not even try it.
Oh sweet summer child. Just wait for the holocaust and apartheid analogies.
Oh I’ve already seen them lol. It wouldn’t be reddit if they didn’t pop up.
I mean, asking for vaccine records is pretty much the same as forcing black people to sit at the back of the bus and to use separate bathrooms. Not to mention it's *private medical information* that you have to keep secret at all cost because imagine what happens if somebody knows you're vaccinated???
Social mobility sure has become easier and faster under them modern jim crow laws! 2 jabs and 4 weeks.
Im not sure how people can get their brains to work out those thoughts.
I want a vaccine passport in no small part because I know my anti vax, qanon acquaintaces will have a full blown meltdown.
[It will be chaos!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/ooaxzn/got_clarity_from_the_cmoh_dr_kieran_moore_says/h5x9bi6)
I’m glad downvotes sorted out that nonsense
Ayy there it is!
* 4 million dead worldwide
* Trillions of dollars lost
* Billions of lives put on hold
* 15 million Americans alone it’s estimated may suffer with long covid the rest of their lives
And yet…there are people in Ontario that think it’s “too extreme” to require proof of vaccination to enjoy certain societal privileges like going to a sporting event or bar. I really don’t have much patience for the 20% of the adult population that’s being asked to make the smallest sacrifice any generations ever been asked to do to resolve a once in 100 year pandemic and turn their backs on their civic duty.
It’s not really a “privilege” though.
Yes it is, you just don't see your privileges in relation to the rest of the world. The pandemic has thrown this into pretty stark contrast, when you compare us complaining about this to India or Cuba, who are being absolutely devastated by Covid.
free speech isn’t a privilege in Canada but there’s no free speech in Cuba. Nice argument. I’m fully vaxed by the way
I'm not some woke yuppie, but I think the guy means we are privileged to even have the right to free speech, when many other countries don't have that right. I think you proved the guys point.
It’s not a privilege though it’s a right. As soon as we start treating these things like privileges the government can start pushing the envelope
... you're comparing a night out at a bar to free speech?
You know 4 million is nothing right?
If this means I can enjoy a full raps game in the fall… let’s goooo
If this does end up happening, which I really hope it doesn't, why aren't they also talking about evidence of immunity from a prior infection/presence of antibodies and T-cells as being as good as vaccinated?
They even acknowledge that most other jurisdictions do include prior infections/antibodies as part of their eligibility criteria in the chart regarding this in the full text of the report. Yet crickets on acknowledging it here.
I think the reason we seem to refuse to acknowledge this is that our overall response has been highly moralized. You see, those who were good little boys and girls who did their part should be rewarded; those who were bad and didn't get the vaccine and were not careful enough to avoid being contaminated by the bad dirty disease should not have access to the same special perks.
Oh, but we're just following the science (that refuses to acknowledge that antibodies obtained from infection exist).
If you had covid, you can and should still get vaccinated to prevent reinfection. Ask your doctor.
Exactly!..As someone who has had covid you cannot find any mention of reinfection statistics anywhere...they do not exist! I have read articles daily and looked for this info and have found nothing for 3 months. They will provide stats for everything else such as breakthrough cases of vaccinated people by city and county in the US and everywhere else but no country in the world can you find reinfected stats. Yet they keep telling us our immunity is waning and people are getting reinfected more than the vaccine....yet they provide no empirical data to support their claims. I would deduce this censorship is because our immunity is almost as good, as good or better than the vaccine. As the American Medical Association said when they downvoted the acknowlegement of natural immunity for immunity passports.....and I quote; "Immunity passports that are based on natural immunity may incentivize exposure," particularly among those who are vaccine-hesitant, "and that's the opposite of what we want to do," .....welcome to censorship everyone....
You should still get vaccinated.
Meh...I'll pass. If the AMA is worried our immunity will cause people to turn down the vaccine and choose to be infected then I think we are good (among other studies and statistics). Before people jump all over me for me saying I am implying people get infected instead of getting the vaccine I am not...but the AMA is worried people will...which should say something.
Don't you mean Health Canada, the health agency of the very country you live, work, and play in?
Nope....Health Canada doesn't really say anything on this matter. Just that those who got covid already should also get vaccinated but have no data to support the statement. Should be easy...get covid you are in a database...get covid again and you are flgged as reinfected and yet apparently breakthrough cases are easy to share on a daily basis but somehow reinfection numbers aren't shared anywhere...CDC even says it is rare to be reinfected. At least the AMA actually somewhat acknowledges they are scared people will opt to get covid over the vaccine, and real world studies out of India, UK and Israel support why. It is clear they are sitting on the numbers they just don't want to disclose them. They want everyone in the world vaccinated including the previously infected. If the numbers of reinfections were high enough to push the narrative they would share them.
Makes me sus.
>You see, those who were good little boys and girls who did their part should be rewarded; those who were bad and didn't get the vaccine and were not careful enough to avoid being contaminated by the bad dirty disease should not have access to the same special perks.
The way it should be.
Because it isn’t? Vaccines produce an absurd number of antibodies compared to natural infection. And even if that wasn’t the case, there’s no system setup to validate very well who had covid in the past. There is already a database of who is vaccinated.
If I don't want to get the vaccine because I've been previously infected, it should be my right given to the evidence to decline the vaccination and enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else. If I get an antibody test and it shows I have them, then unless there is any science which says natural immunity is inferior to the vaccine, I don't see why this shouldn't be recognized.
I don't think it will ever result in a 2 tier rights and freedoms thing personally. Although any business can refuse service to any one they desire to. Hopefully most business won't to that. They ones that do will be taking money out of their own till and that is NOT good business. Money talks... loudly.
I actually don’t think anyone that’s unvaccinated, including you, has the right to the same freedoms as those of us that are vaccinated since vaccines give us fairly known properties in terms of the level of protection and how dangerous a vector for spread you are. Like many things in life, your individual freedom ends where it starts causing substantial and preventable community harm.
You need to produce the science that says natural infection is inferior to being vaccinated. Your feelings don't matter.
It’s actually you that’s going based on feelings:
Vaccines have heavily funded and exhaustively studied randomized control trials testing efficacy and arriving at very precise efficacy percentages
“Natural immunity” has ad-hoc and anecdotal observations with no firm numbers behind it.
When designing policy we go with what has evidence behind it. I can tell you that mRNA vaccines showed 94% efficacy and point to CDC and Health Canada reviewed research. You can’t point me to anything like that for your assertions.
But they're not thought to 94% effective anymore and the idea of boosters isn't out of the question. Vaccines are training your immune system to recognize a threat and neutralize it. It's still your immune system.
Anyways I'm not going to get into it. Other places have recognized natural immunity and a lot has been written on the subject. It's not ad-hoc and anecdotal, it's been studied.
Against Delta subsequent studies have efficacy at 88% yes. Point being, these still are things that are rigorously tracked, not just observational. I’m sure you can’t point me to any firm study regarding how someone who contracted covid in March 2020 would fare against the delta variant. For vaccines however I can do exactly that.
That’s the difference. Evidence is there for one. Not the other.
And again, putting that aside, fact remains we do have a database of vaccinated people. We do not have an exhaustive database of everyone who ever got covid so a certification system needs to work on what we actually have data for.
That's why you get an antibody or t-cell test and have that entered into a database. And as they study it more you continue to get tested as they deem necessary.
From what I understand the rate of reinfected hospitalized cases is very rare. How did we as a species survive pandemics and novel pathogens of the past before routine vaccinations. If the only way out of this is to get 100% of the world vaccinated against every variant that pops up we're doomed. Herd immunity is achieved through a combination of vaccination and natural infection. A small mutation on the virus is not going to fool your immune system - that's why the vaccines are still effective against the variants as well.
Exactly. This 100 percent. So much of the discussion just skips over this.
I want my right to be safe from people who refuse to act for the good of society protected too.
Lol....I love reading reddit posts....
Ummm…no? It’s very well documented vaccination produces substantially more antibodies than natural infection.
France does recognize natural immunity though I think there is a time limit (I am not sure what it is, or whether it is based in science).
Some might worry that it would encourage some people to try to contract the virus.
And, what's wrong with that? If you can sort through the fear, what is the real risk of someone young and healthy experiencing a mild illness from which they fully recover? Of course people are not allowed to consider this option because they will apparently become a 'variant factory' and not self-isolate like most people do when they're sick.
Israel's green pass recognized prior infection as well.
Yes, you're right, given that people self-isolate (as a legal requirement) when infected, there's no issue there.
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
My feeling is that anybody saying you MUST take the vaccine else you are an immoral plague spreading evil variant factory is just as bad as the people saying you shouldn't take it because you'll get implanted with a 5G chip. People have every right to make their own decisions and to do a risk versus benefit analysis.
Actually, no sarcasm, you're right that if a healthy young person does get infected, but doesn't pass it on, no harm done.
I also agree with you that there are zealots on both sides.
What the fuck ever, let's just get back to normal already.
But what about my charter rights to needlessly become a variant factory and cripple the healthcare system?
Probably best to stop viewing other people as “variant factories” and to start viewing them as people again, for your own good as well as everyone else’s.
I’ve never had a flu vaccine in my entire life that I can recall (and I’m sure you’ve skipped at least one year too) but nobody would’ve looked at me as an “influenza variant factory” before now, and I think that’s a good thing that we’ve forgotten.
The biggest shift we’ve seen in the last 16 months is that we went from viewing our neighbours and acquaintances as people, to just filthy disease carriers (like some sort of vermin). There is absolutely no way such an outlook ends well for anyone.
>Probably best to stop viewing other people as “variant factories” and to start viewing them as people again, for your own good and well as everyone else’s.
Well said indeed !
Please stop comparing this to the flu. The effects of this sickness are way, way more serious that the flu. Even with all of our restrictions we lost a lot of people.
Just get off your ass and get vaccinated. The vaccine can save your life. If that's not enough; you not getting sick can save your neighbour's life by not passing it on to them.
See my [below comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/op0uk7/ontario_science_table_says_vaccine_certificates/h62kx4j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) on assessing and accepting some level of personal risk. On a more related note though, I think my flu analogy is fair. The odds that I personally am the host of the mutation of some vaccine-proof Coronavirus variant are roughly comparable to the odds I’m personally the host of some super mutation of the seasonal flu (with both being essentially zero).
I don’t like to make that comparison generally, since you are right that the Coronavirus is significantly deadlier (especially for old people) and more of a problem right now since we don’t have decades of vaccine research like the flu, but in this particular case, I stand behind the analogy.
We historically haven’t treated random people like they were going to be patient zero for airborne AIDS in this country, and I don’t think now is the time to start.
The flu wasn’t part of a global pandemic that killed millions in a year and ground multiple countries to a standstill.
Maybe those variant factories should stay home if they’re too scared to get a vaccine that will render the effects of this virus to the low level of “just another flu”
And for the record, I get the flu shot every year.
And no, anti-vaccers have been seen that way long before covid
Actually, the flu was part of a global pandemic that killed millions in a year and ground multiple countries to a standstill. It happened about a hundred years ago, and the fact that you don’t know that suggests I shouldn’t waste my time reading the rest of your drivel.
Influenza variant factory (along with the other ~2/3rds of Canadians who don’t get the flu shot annually)
I’m talking about modern times. OP was comparing the covid vaccine to a flu shot. Jfc
Learn some context
First off, “I WaS tAlKiNg AbOuT mOdErN tImEs” is a cope. You didn’t even connect the dots when you wrote it originally, because you’re so caught up in the last 16 months of fear-porn on your tv and computer screens that you forgot about it.
Secondly though (and more substantively), I don’t think 100 years ago is all that long ago, in the grand scheme of things. Especially considering that there are smaller flu pandemics all the time, like Swine Flu, which was like a decade ago and infected hundreds of millions of people globally. I was still a kid then, but I don’t remember anyone normalizing treating healthy, normal people like sub-human plague rats.
No, it’s not. I was responding to OP who talked about the flu shot.
>The flu wasn’t part of a global pandemic that killed millions in a year and ground multiple countries to a standstill.
Uh, see 1918 to 1920....
Per capita, the Spanish Flu pandemic infected and killed more people than the current pandemic.
What do you think the flu is dude? Spanish flu a thousand viral generations later.
Oooo big man here! Not scared of anything this one.
So go get covid in a place where you can’t pass it on to anyone else. But before you do, do some research on the young healthy people who have died or had serious side effects. Then compare that to the mRNA vaccines
Yep there it is, "I am healthy so why should I get vaccinated?". Because you can be an asymptomatic and pass it on to someone who is vulnerable to the disease even with the vaccine, like a transplant recipient. With the vaccine you are a lot less likely to pass it on.
Not to take his side here (since I disagree with him too, but I think the rest of y’all have the criticism of him handled) but I just wanted to bring to your attention just how many “ifs” your hypothetical has. If you’re unvaccinated, and if you get the Coronavirus, and if you transmit it while asymptomatic (which I’ve seen studies suggest is less likely than symptomatic transmission), and if other people’s vaccines don’t protect them is a lot of “ifs” if you ask me.
It requires 4 relatively unlikely things to happen, and since they’re independent variables, you’d multiply the odds (resulting in very, very low odds). The first person being vaccinated increase the number from 4 unlikely things needing to happen to 5. It’s like 0.000001 vs 0.00000001, which in my opinion isn’t the massive difference you seem to be making it out to be.
People have become so risk-averse over the last 16 months that it’s almost mind boggling. Nothing and no one will ever give you 100% perfect safety, but at some point, you’ll have to accept some level of risk and move on (or be a paranoid shut-in forever, I guess). For me, we’re past that point (at least for now, barring further developments) and I think most normal people with normal aversion to risk should come to the same conclusion I have, when they think about it that way. I just figured I share that perspective. Cheers
Your points are refreshing to hear in this thread. People have become unbelievably risk-averse since the pandemic started and we are at a point where enough is enough. Worrying about miniscule hypotheticals won't do us as a society any good and we need to accept that some people simply won't get the vaccines by choice.
Exactly, and thanks. Unfortunately though, 16 straight months of “we’re all gonna die” news coverage has severely warped the average person’s perception of risk with regards to this, and I fear that it might take nearly as long to un-warp their perceptions.
They did a “focus group” and because the word vaccine passport was not perceived well they are using “certificate” like people are going to like now they graduated fro something.
Fucking government cut the bullshit and tell people why the fucking micro managing regarding the vaccinated people?
Are we going to be perennially bombarded with fear campaigns about this fucking virus?
So if I’ve been to the gym 200+ times since COVID started, it will now be a perk for me to use another app on my phone to show my status to get in?
Possibly if they need to lockdown for those who are at high risk due to NOT being vaccinated.
Our ICU’s are at capacity all the time in cold and flu season. Are we just going to lockdown all the time because of that?
What happens when our ICU’s are filled as usual, but COVID isn’t spiking? I’m actually authentically asking not being smart.
Are they? i am also genuinely asking. I did work in healthcare but am retired. I never heard of a province’s ICUs all being fully at one time before.
My friends in health care say this to me often. I don’t work in the setting and don’t have context on what they mean.
That being said my mom had surgery a few years ago in Hamilton and spent most of her time in a hallway.
So if they're always full, where will the extra sick people go? This is why we've locked down 3 times already.