T O P

Ranking some roguelites on how much skill or luck is required for them

Ranking some roguelites on how much skill or luck is required for them

kaicool2002

Isaac luck? You gotta memorize dozens of bosses with multiple attack patterns that can all spawn as champions with different patterns and even some as double trouble. Furthermore, as a skilled player Isaac and Lost are basically ultra easy with almost no luck involved. Even with a trash eden start and bad items along the way you can still win almost ANY run look at cobalts eden streak record post Repentence for example.


[deleted]

[удалено]


kaicool2002

Oh trust me the game got considerably harder with its latest DLC the "alt path" is definitely quite challenging. I don't recommend to put it up with Gungeon but it now offers quite the hard optional way.


SirCalvin

Idk, I think Isaac isn't all too mechanically tight, so you can't quite internalize and hone the dodge mechanics like you can in gungeon for example. But it requries a different kind of skillset not just in how well you know the hundreds of items, but also how the different systems interact with each other, what avenues give you the best return on investment; what chances to take. Especially with the new DLC and new characters introducing some wild mechanics, you're given a plethora of ways to break and fiddle with ressource management, and that's where I think the real meat of the game lies. Sure the items you get are down to luck, but playing with what you have, not just in combat, but the wider metagame, and finding the most ridiculous seams is what sets Isaac apart imo.


browncharliebrown

I mean repetence has a lot of really hard character.


Driscoll17

Repentance belongs at least in the middle


Handsome_Claptrap

It's still far more luck based than Gungeon or Hades. Some combos in Isaac can make you straight up unbeatable or so overpowered you delete everything in a room instantly. There are also times where it feels like there is no way to avoid damage. In Gungeon instead the broken combos are far more limited and you always know where you fucked up. In Hades there are broken builds, but it's taken into account and you kinda need to be overpowered to beat high heat.


fuck_it_was_taken

You can beat gungeon with only the starting weapons except on pilot, I don't think you can really say much about luck in that game, not to mention like, saying Spelunky 1 or 2 is any luck, maybe for the average player I can believe it, but at the end of the day you can win with no items, if you truly reached the skill ceiling


BubbaBasher

No, you can with Pilot if you aren't a coward.


Zeebuoy

is pilot's pistol particularly bad or something?


Crocktodad

It's become kind of a meme, but his starting pistol is pretty inaccurate, and lower damage than the starting gun of the convict, which is just as inaccurate. The convict also gets a shotgun as a starter gun


Iamjacksplasmid

It's really inaccurate and the bullets have a very short range. His starting weapon is the uncontested worst, but that's because his items are as good as his gun is bad...lockpick has crazy utility all the way to the end of the game, disarming personality makes it so he can get more shop items, and hidden compartment makes it so you have a good chunk of extra ammo and an extra active item. This is why he's a polarizing character...he starts as the weakest and all of his stuff makes it easier to get and use items and weapons. So a good run with him is game breakingly good, but a bad run is bad because RNG shit on you and didn't give you even one thing to work with... If RNG shits on anyone else, there are silver linings. The soldier has his great sidearm, the hunter has a pretty great one and the crossbow, the convict goes super Saiyan on a bad run the moment anyone hits her...but the pilot? He just has that shitty little pistol still.


Zeebuoy

is pilot's starting pistol particularly bad or something?


maniac123_

There is a starting gun based on a nerf gun but it is still better.


Zeebuoy

Oof


fuck_it_was_taken

Aim is incredibly bad


9993829throwaway

I agree, especially with Repentance you barely get so fucked over it’s impossible, the changes to the gold chest pool and introduction of some items to the boss pool to undilute it have done wonders


fuck_it_was_taken

Yeah, also with repentance, every fucking shot is like twice the speed so now you need more skill


Teln0

was looking for this comment... didn't have to look too far


Mathtermind

\> as a skilled player Lost is basically ultra easy **Delirium telefrags have entered the chat**


Ukaera

Fans of their favorite roguelite game explaining why THEIR game is the least luck based and the most skill based"


----potato----

Me who does high heat in Hades and will never pass up a chance to complain about Approval Process.


IWantToKillMyselfKek

What is approval process again? Less boon choices? (sorry I'm like 16 heat max and never really had to go into anything other than EM, Deadline and maybe more damage idk)


----potato----

Less choices yeah. And to rub salt in the wound you can still see what’s crossed out.


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Mine is Neon Abyss and Isaac so I don't see why you say that here


Ukaera

Im talking mostly about the comments


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

K I see why now


coentertainer

Flinthook is just impossible. For me the factor that separates roguelikes in hardness is not skill/luck, but skill/upgrades. Some games like Nuclear Throne, Gonner, Tumbleseed etc, I was so satisfied when I beat them because I had beaten a game that was mechanically very similar to the one I picked up on the fresh install. Some other roguelikes I feel like I'm just waiting for my character to be buffed enough that I just inevitably beat it regardless of whether my skill improves or not.


[deleted]

Why is Flinthook impossible? I didn't give it a fair shot and I keep hemming and hawing whether or not I want to. On every other point made here though, I completely agree. This is why I prefer traditional roguelikes mostly, because I love feeling like I learned how to beat the game, as opposed to the game babysitting me. Hades somehow struck the middle ground here. You can turn the heat up to turn off the mirror upgrades, which helps, but I guess the weapon upgrades still exists. I like that the difficulty is fluid and I can straight up do Heat 32 as soon as I started the game (Hell Mode)


mr_bombo

I’ve only played it a few hours and I quickly resigned to defeat. In my opinion, it’s the platforming that makes it difficult. It’s similar to Spelunky in that sense, but I found Spelunky more enjoyable.


TurkusGyrational

Hades' difficult curve is way too slow for me, the game doesn't inventivize you to go with higher heat levels than you've completed with that weapon. I had like a 20 game win streak just cycling the bonus weapon trying to get past heat 10 so the game would be challenging. It felt like shooting myself in the foot to try heat 30 if I've only ever gotten rewards for heat 8.


ACStitchesFan

Hades is a lower skill threshold than dead cells in my opinion. To get the end of the game in dead cells you have to beat the game on 5 boss cells (hardest difficulty) in which enemies will kill you in 2-3 hits and you have extremely limited healing for an entire run. I would put Returnal on the list as more skill than Hades, but less than Dead Cells.


blamethefranchise

I mean I see the list as a list of skill to luck ratio. So for example a game which has the same items every time would have very low luck ratio, however it might also at the same time be a very easy game. A lot of skill isn't required, but you can't win the game easily only because you were lucky. I guess what I'm trying to say is the way I see it, the games on the far end of the luck side aren't necessarily easy by any means, it's just that with good luck you can steamroll the game, and the games on the other end don't necessarily have to be difficult, but if you do win, you rarely won because you got a super OP item combo, but rather because you played well enough to win if that makes sense idk.


53bvo

We need a third axis to show the amount of skill that is needed to beat the game


TurkusGyrational

You actually only need a second axis showing difficulty


pape14

Yea I’m climbing heat levels pretty steady in hades and have only beaten the clock tower boss once and didn’t reach whatever comes after that lol


Handsome_Claptrap

Once you beat the final boss once, climbing the first 10 or so heat levels isn't that hard. Shit starts to get intense from 10 to 20, then you generally jump directly to 32 which is a mess.


RefinedBean

I'd agree on your assessment of Returnal but I'd say it's VERY close with Dead Cells. You technically, if you're good enough, can take 0 damage in either. It's just hard as balls to do that. God Returnal was great.


Duthtin

I agree. It's also important to note that each weapon you get in Dead Cells, you'd have to adapt to learn how to use the weapon properly unless you're in Custom Mode. In Hades, once you get how each boon works with the corresponding weapon aspect, it's easy to determine which is broken and which is not.


Dailand

I think a fair comparison for BC5 is high heat (32 ?) and it's also really hard. I have done BC4 without too much trouble but I have a hard time getting above 20 heat.


ACStitchesFan

Interesting, see and I have done 32 heat on two weapons, but getting 5 BC on dead cells was so much harder to me. Having an hour run end in one second because you miss one of 6 in a row parries in dead cells is so unforgiving, while on Hades if you can make it to the end with all lives you can literally just smash hades while you take damage the whole time.


allxOld13

I never parry in dead Cells, never really got the hang of it. I started a new save cuz I haven't played since the bad seed and I'm on BC5 after 40 runs! And 30 of them are cursed chest kills lol. It's fairly easy to beat dead Cells by dodging only, at least for me.


Kinglink

You're confusing "difficulty" with "Skill". Dead cells is DEFINITELY more luck based. What weapons appear will affect runs, which is a luck component. The question is going to be what gear you carry with you. Hades tends to always give you builds that will work, the question is which build are you going to pick up.


----potato----

The list is more what requires more luck. Also Hades true difficulty lies in heat.


Handsome_Claptrap

Well there is nothing rewarding you for going past 32 heat, but some people consider 40 heat to be the ultimate Hades challenge and you have to be pretty skilled for that.


[deleted]

I'd say risk of rain 1 requires way more skill than luck when compared to risk of rain 2


Jupfy

Isaac isn't just luck, the game usually gives you what you need on the first 3 floors if you know what you need to do. U usually Always get your good items through secret rooms, challenge rooms, sacrifice rooms and devil and angel deals. It's mostly strategy


AuthorCornAndBroil

The idea that Isaac is mostly luck is the mindset of people who rely too heavily on specific builds and synergies, rather than working with what they get.


CrossError404

The problem is that you can get 30 items in a row and still have 0 damage ups and 0 tears ups. Or like having 66% for angel room spawn for the entire game and literally none spawns. And sure, you can beat most of the game with no damage/tears ups. But 99% of players ain't gonna beat Delirium with base stats Isaac. Also not to mention insta-deaths like playing Tainted Lost and going for Delirium and he just telefrags you. Or wanting to go for the Alt path, then no keys spawn in the basement. Or getting like 10 health ups as a keeper. Or just getting soft-locked.


Jupfy

I dont say it's purely skill based, it's definitely luck that's needed. But I still think it's about using what you get. You don't get the items you need? Then don't go for delirium and Go for mega Stan/blue baby/lamb. Or if you see that your run is absolutely trash stop after the Isaac/Stan kill by taking the opposite picture. Telegraphing delirium is absolutely shit and I don't get why it didn't get fixed already, but in my mind it's more a bug than a mechanic. I think Isaac in general is less luck based than many players think, but there is absolutely a certain amount of luck needed. The more special characters like keeper and lost and some of the tainted characters are more luckbased than others like Isaac (d6 helps a lot to have good runs). I don't try to argue that's it's pure skill that's needed, but I think it should be more to the right in the list.


browncharliebrown

Getting soft locked is extremely rare and usually just a bug. You can usually just exit a run.


EDYSTERi

I would have absolutely disagreed with your comment and Isaacs placement on this list before repentance came out but now I completely agree with you but still think it's a bit too much on the luck side of this list. Item pool was already getting polluted with useless items in afterbirth+ and I was hoping they would address this issue in repentance. Instead they doubled down on it and now the item pool is filled with useless shit and on top of that they hard nerfed shops and devil deals.


Jupfy

Yeah devil deals are not as good as they used to be-


browncharliebrown

You mean like buffing almost all the useless items. Examples: Include Modem Lag now just deleting bullets and potentially doubling room drops, Glyph of Balance now working on the lost, Harbingers having a smaller explosion radius, Holy water stunning enemies and now no longer requiring getting hit. Curse of the vampire getting a dps up. I could go on and on.


EDYSTERi

Sure some items are slightly better but the success in runs is still most often based on your damage stat. They probably added something like 100 passive items in Repentance and not even 10 of those increase damage stat. This leads to way more runs with really low damage and ,with nerfed shops and less reroll machines, leaves player without any chance to affect the item choices.


fuck_it_was_taken

Unless you're going delirium, and then yeah, you need luck


diodenkn

I think its more that really good luck *will* easily win you a run at any skill level, as in if you get psy fly, brim, spoon bender, and mutant spider you cannot lose. Not that you need it though - there is definitely skill involved in winning the worse runs, for sure. Even a classic type of run with just dps upgrades can be quite difficult. How effective "good luck" is in isaac is directly affected by your knowledge of the game, such as knowing you can minmax easily with no. 2, or how modelling clay wins you the game if you manipulate it right. So yes strategy is definitely the main factor. I would put it in the middle really, even if it is harder than some of the other games (\*cough\* gungeon \*cough\*)


Beardamus

> as in if you get psy fly, brim, spoon bender, and mutant spider you cannot lose. Tainted lost +delirium. You can lose super easy there with that combo.


diodenkn

Ok, well t lost is kind of an exception to most powerful builds. The reason there is because it’s a shit boss who telefrags you, not because the build is bad. Try book of shadows and 4.5 volt on top of that then if you want an actual invincible build.


Beardamus

Do I need to install the premonition mod to forsee when he's gonna telefrag or no?


diodenkn

the best solution is to uninstall the game ​ fr though, book of shadows + 4.5 volt is infinite invincibility, just use it at the start of the fight and every time it recharges. As long as you do like 18 damage per second (easy with t lost and his better items) you cannot possibly die to him.


Beardamus

So you're saying with knowledge of these two items and knowledge of the fight luck isn't a factor? Interesting.


diodenkn

oh no luck is very much a factor. in this case it is an insanely important factor, to the point where no skill is required at all. i guess you could make a point that the knowledge itself is "skill" in a sense, but i dont really think so. its more of a gamebreak really.


makeshifttoaster02

Downwell, Slay the Spire, Monolith, Into the Breach go almost entirely to the right. Noita goes middle of the "Mostly luck" region. Wizard of Legend goes in "Mostly skill" region.


awera

Nah almost any Noita run is winnable if the player is skilled enough. The ceiling and amount of knowledge needed is huge though. There are streamers doing 10 wins in a row streaks all the time


yolilbishhugh

Someone said in the noita subredddit perfectly: it's at both ends of the spectrum at the same time. It's simultaneously using all your knowledge and skill with the world and wand building, while also avoiding a worm eating you in 0.3 seconds.


gj6

Disagree on STS for higher difficulties. Yes you need to be insanely good at deckbuilding and risk management, but even the best players can only get a ~60% win rate with most of the characters on the hardest difficulty


oooArcherooo

I'd say Noita is in superposition


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

I like that


bjholmes3

This list is odd to me because luck and skill are not mutually exclusive. I'd also argue specifically for Hades, although it's definitely not the most difficult game on this list, there is almost no meaningful luck involved whatsoever. You have so much influence and control over the outcome of events, the only "luck" I can think of is sack RNG and if you're pushing for a specific duo boon or hammer build.


BigBlueDane

I agree on hades. It’s almost pure skill. It’s not the hardest up there but there’s way less rng compared to most roguelites


YaPapaDragon

I sorta lucked out on Hades with the gun and boons that all complimented its secondary fire, I could carpet nuke entire areas with ease which pissed off most of my friends much to my amusement


TrevorBOB9

You’re right they aren’t exclusive, but I think Hades’ position is reasonable, if you consider higher heat levels, where you have significantly less choice in what boons/hammers you get, the shop is more expensive, etc.


RHNewfield

I mean, the choice of boons is always RNG. Sure, you can choose which gods to go after since you have room choice, but you can't always get the same build every single run. Wouldn't that be RNG/Luck? It's been a hot minute since I've played, so maybe I'm forgetting something.


odragora

Randomized tool selection is one of the core genre defining things. Luck is not required in Hades. It's almost impossible to lose a run due to bad RNG.


RHNewfield

Definitely makes it easier to have the proper boons, though. I do agree with you. Was honestly just asking if there was a way to control that aspect. Like in ROR2, you can unlock an artifact that allows you to choose items instead of random drops. OP's phrasing made me think there was something similar in Hades since they only mentioned specific Duo Boons and Hammers as RNG.


Root_Head

There are trinkets - which can be swapped between floors - that force a given god's boon to spawn. Once you have a blessing from a given god they should show up more as the run goes on. So you do have a decent bit of control, especially if you just want one or two specific gods.


RHNewfield

Ah, right, I totally forgot about those. Thanks! Gotta get back into it again. I stopped after my first won run and just...forgot to go back lmao


ACStitchesFan

Yeah skill vs luck isn’t the best because a game like Returnal has very little luck influencing your runs, but it also takes less skill than other roguelites. You could put returnal close to the far right and yet it’s easier than Spelunky 2, Enter Gungeon, and Dead Cells.


White_Tea_Poison

I think people are just reading this as a difficulty list when it isn't intended to be. Skill, luck, and difficulty are entirely different metrics.


ACStitchesFan

Dead cells should be on the far luck side then because if you are playing in normal with everything unlocked the game is extremely punishing with bad items and weapons. Most people play custom purely because the game punishes you for unlocking items and adding tons of luck to the game


PandACT

this is where we need a nice cartesian x and y axis!


lucaszeca

I hard disagree with RoR 1 being "completely luck". I think the reason most people suck at it is because they try to explore the whole map early on and they waste too much time, making the game too hard. From my experience, as long you blitz the first half while gathering as much you can, you can reliably beat the game on default difficulty. Even if your luck is thrash, the final stage dumps so many chests at you that it makes the time/money management pay off. Also hot take but Isaac is more skill based and gungeon is more luck based than people think. Isaac has too many hidden systems that only a smart veteran can exploit and the devil deal system allows perfect players to compensate for some bad luck. Gungeon is undeniably hard and punishing but that also makes luck matter more. Like, a single speed boost in gungeon makes a massive difference in boss fights.


sciencepluspotato

I think the guy who made the list didn’t take into account the 2 types of skills there are in these games: playing and planning Playing is your normal gameplay, just shoot, slash, dodge and escape enemy attacks. Planning is usually used to turn the game in your favour, giving you better "luck" if you know how to use a game’s systems to your advantage. It is also knowing which items to get or avoid. Isaac is heavily reliant on planning, way more than a lot of other roguelites. It has like 10 systems stacked on top of each other, the gameplay almost being in service of those systems. Isaac certainly isn’t for everyone, but pretending it’s luck>>skills is a lie.


lucaszeca

Even then, i dont see how RoR can be "completely luck based" when it clearly requires both mechanical and management skills. Yeah, you can play fast before it gets too hard but you need to play good to achieve that. It's also not one of those RLs where one single rare item can carry your run since everything is meant to be stacked.


sciencepluspotato

Tbh, an easy to find item that WILL carry your run is the chronobauble


SlothSalad1

XD whenever I see a chronobauble it's ggs for Mithrix


PearEffervescence

What other systems other than the devil deals are there in Isaac? I only played casually for a bit so I'm curious


ColossalDreadmaw132

gungeon runs end if u get gatling gull


JezzaJ101

Gatling gull is not a difficult boss lmao, just dodge roll


fuck_it_was_taken

Literally just walk in a circle around him


Root_Head

Lol wut. I'll be the first to admit there is a lot of luck in gungeon, but the floor 1 bosses are all extremely managable even with terrible equipment. What's more, gatling gull is quite possibly the easiest of the lot.


Mogsn

Hahaha, Flinthook.


leonhgomes

Nice ranking, but I don't know if this format explains these relationships very well, for example Enter the Gungeon requires more luck AND more skill than Hades and Dead Cells. IMO (based on how long to beat it a first time). By the way, never played flint hook, looks really nice, do you recommend it?


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

I would recommend it if you want pain in all senses of the word It's flawed but fun


Treejeig

I've played flint hook and it isn't really about luck but more about getting a good starting hand at least from experience. However there are a few luck based events so saying it's completely skill isn't exactly true. Fun game but hell on a controller.


LeoSushi

Gungeon is harder than dead cells at boss cell level 0, but dead cells is a game with difficulty tiers. I'd argue that far and away bc5 dead cells is harder than gungeon.


leonhgomes

Absolutely, like I said, based on how long to beat it a first time. Many games escalate in crazy ways after that. By the way, the late game in Gungeon can be quite challenging too. Beat resourceful rat and lich in a full cursed run is absolutely insane, probably demands similar time investment as bc5 dead cell. But that's just my experience and speculations, not trying to argue in this sense.


LeoSushi

That's a fair take on it. The games are very different in the way they handle difficulty. Dead cells has different tiers of difficulty, and your reward for winning is the next tier. Gungeon gives you 95% of the content from the start and expects you to get caught up and have to fight through from the start of it's curve each time, with the reward for winning being unlocks and eventually, the 6th chamber. More a comment on them being harder to compare due to different design philosophies than attacking your point. That was the intent, at least. I've played and loved both games, and I'll be honest, I've beaten neither 5bc nor full cursed rat (or even challenge mode, for that matter)


BubbaBasher

Bruh, I can conferm that the only think that bad luck can screw you is ammo drops.


imtherealgoku

While I do prefer Dead Cells, I totally agree. Dead Cells isn't nearly as overwhelming as Enter The Gungeon. That's not to say Dead Cells isn't hard, though. I'm still stuck on 1BC lol


Luxcervinae

Hades is probably the easiest rogue I've played out of all of these, only one I havent played is flint. 30 hours at least in all of them and honestly all you do in hades is click in enemy direction and dash horizontal to them, its super brainless but it is still a ton of fun.


Finna_woken

I definitely agree that flinthook is all skill, I gave up on the game in 3 hours because it was so difficult though it did feel fair


Le-Tree

Skill can go a long way in Risk of Rain imo


death2sanity

Seconded.


Parthon

Okay, the comments are great, but most of them are: "MY GAME ISN'T LUCK BASED, IT'S SKILL BASED!" and then follow it up with one of two arguments: "You can get so good (skill) at a game that the randomness doesn't matter." or "Eventually you understand the strategy (more skill) so you can use the randomness to your favor." Yeah, that's not exactly what luck/skillbased means! If players can get lucky wins with great items as a new player, it's luck based. If expert players can get regular wins through strategic play then it's skill based. And these two things are NOT mutually exclusive. Throw in a couple of "THAT GAME I DON'T LIKE IS LUCK BASED BECAUSE ITEMS INFLUENCE RUNS!", yeah but you don't mention the ratio of luck to skill. As other people have said, this is a two-axis system: how much does RNG influence winning, and how much does player skill influence winning. And that can be broken down further into: Does gaining more skill reduce the effect of luck on the game? But honestly, while I liked the graph because it sparked a lot of conversation, it's completely shit. Risk of Rain is not luck based if you are skilled at it. Duh. Spelunky 1 has a high variability in full-run completion time based on the items you get. If you are going for a no-hit ankh run it's even more luck based. Probably the only game where luck goes up as a factor for the ultimate win as you get more skilled in a positive way. Dead Cells is both high skill (that reflexive gameplay mmmmmmm) and high luck (what items you get). It's also one of the few were high skill doesn't diminish the luck aspect. Binding of Isaac isn't low luck for new players, but highly skilled players know all the secrets of the levels and how to gain valueable items early AND they are better at playing the game and enemy mechanics. It's a double whammy in having skill overcome luck. It's also probably why binding of isaac is so good, luck should influence new players, and skill should influence old players. Great work Edmund. Trying to rank games like this is totally subjective and often completely trash. Just go enjoy your roguelites!


RoadkillWaffle

I disagree on RoR2 being "Mostly luck", the skill ceiling in that game is ridiculous


OlafWoodcarver

Agreed - anyone saying Risk of Rain 2 is mostly luck doesn't understand the game well enough to assess it.


XxR3DSKULLxX

Drizzle players


Duthtin

Especially on Monsoon. Yikes.


RHNewfield

I only just got comfortable playing in NORMAL difficulty for ROR2, even with the Command and Sacrifice artifacts, and I've still only beaten Mithrix twice. I have about 50 hours in that game. Compared to Hades where I guess I have more runs but less time played, which I beat the final boss relatively quickly and can get there very consistently now. Hades is hard, but it's not super skill intensive imo. Once you get the hang of both, you get more consistent, but ROR2 difficulty curves a lot harder.


brainpostman

It's pretty low. Wut?


awera

I agree that it’s not mostly luck but the skill ceiling is very low compared to a game like Spelunky 2 or Noita. You can win a monsoon commando run 99% of the time simply by strafing always and looting fast + picking the right items and scrapping the rest


Quack53105

Where's Nuclear Throne?


Karls_Crab

It's off screen


glump1

No way on God's green earth RoR2 isn't almost entirely skill.


Jinyu-Pantash

The game gives you a lot of ways out to save a "lost" run. All hidden realms are basically free items except the Bazaar. Rainstorm is the intended balance with difficulty scaling which is "the way the game is meant to be played" but when I see people battle up against the insane scaling of Eclipse 8, I cannot be convinced that the game is luck based.


SlothSalad1

Completely agree, even on super hard difficulties like Eclipse 8 most runs a re winnable if you know what you are doing


ShacoTrickshots

Depends if you use command or not


l0ckter

What metric(s) are you basing this off of? Can you beat the game without luck? How long does it take without luck? How easy is it without luck? This scale really doesn't make any sense to me. I'll use Hades and Isaac as examples. Both of these can definitely be beaten even if you get some seriously bad luck. Hell, you could probably beat both of them without even picking up any upgrades. Most if not all damage can be avoided in both of those games. It might be a slog to actually get through some of the later areas and bosses without good, or any, upgrades but you could do it. To me, that means both of those games would fall squarely into the "Completely skill" zone. It'd certainly take a fair bit of time to learn the games well enough to get to the point you could beat them in that way, but that's true of most games if you actually want to be good at them. Edit: Also, particularly in Isaac, once you really understand how the game works you can make just about any combination of items work to get through the game with. Maybe you can't beat some of the hardest bosses but there's another confounding factor in how this scale works: what route through the game are we basing this off of? Isaac has so many different routes of varying difficulties and varying levels of luck and skill to get to, but you can always get to at least one of the normal endings regardless of luck.


CrossError404

There are a few "fuck you" rooms in Isaac where you can't avoid damage. Also soft-locks. And IIRC some bosses like Ultra Greed have a little bit of healing mechanics, so with bad luck your DPS may be lower than what he is able to heal. Repentance didn't fix all of those problems. And one of the last bosses - Delirium is designed in such a way that he can telefrag you. Some explaining: Delirium can take form of any bosses you beat during the run. Mom is like 99.9% required to beat before you access Delirium (You can skip her if you had We need to go deeper or teleport to I am Error room, but then you won't get polaroid/negative and thus will have lower chance of entering void before ending the run). Mom's leg works in such a way that it teleports over player, waits for a bit and then slams to the ground gaining a hitbox. Delirium can turn into Mom, teleport over player and immediately change into other boss, immediately gaining a hitbox and thus dealing unavoidable damage. Considering that in order to 100% Isaac you need to beat him with Tainted Lost (Character that dies on 1 hit), it can only be accomplished through luck.


l0ckter

Yeah, there are some shitty rooms in Isaac (why I specified "most if not all damage" instead of saying all damage can be avoided), but for most characters a little damage occasionally really isn't a big deal. The Lost can definitely suck especially when trying to get 100% but I don't really think 100% completion is really what should be looked at here. I mean, there's a huge gap, especially with Isaac, between a more casual player and someone who plays to get 100% completion. Also, one bit of bullshit luck involved with completing Isaac is the requirement to actually pick up every item rather than just unlocking them being enough. That's not even really a part of how the RNG factors into the gameplay and being able to beat runs. That's literally just keep playing until the RNG finally decides to give you that one item you haven't picked up yet despite unlocking it 50 hours ago. You can win every run during that time frame and still not 100% the game just because you haven't picked up that one item. If we just look more at the core gameplay and how RNG affects difficulty on a run to run basis, I think the fact that people have gotten win streaks in the hundreds of runs says more than enough about how skill is the main factor in regular Isaac play. Lost is a challenge character and isn't indicative of what the game is normally like. And yeah, Delirium can be bullshit but the bullshit isn't enough to be a run ender in and of itself most of the time. Ultimately, I think this really just highlights how much the ranking criteria matters for something like this. Depending on whether you look at 100%, side modes like Greed Mode, optional characters and routes, etc. Isaac could probably be reasonably placed just about anywhere on this scale. I could see the argument for it being one of the most luck dependent games on the list or one of the least luck dependent.


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

To be honest, I have no idea I just ranked them based on how much luck shapes your run


l0ckter

Okay, so maybe more just how much RNG is in the game rather than how much luck is necessary to beat it? This ranking certainly makes more sense if I look at it in that way. The main thing that confuses me then would be the placement of Risk of Rain. I'll be honest that I've never really played it all that much, and certainly haven't beaten it, but it does seem a bit odd to me that it is the one marked as involving the most luck. I always thought it seemed fairly skill oriented, but again I haven't played it extensively.


FatDude333

You cant get lucky in ror1 if don't know how to play properly because you will not be able to pass stage 3. Even if you get lucky in ror1 you can easily die if you don't know how to play.


AquaticHornet37

Where would you put nuclear throne?


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

around ETG since they're a bit similar maybe a bit more luck


AquaticHornet37

Makes sense


LyzbietCorwi

I really liked this chart you've made and would love to know more roguelites based purely on skill. Funnily enough, I think this explains why I never loved Isaac. There are runs where you get great items and destroy everything on your way, while there are others where you have to go a long way only with the pea shooter and it is extremely boring.


2Lainz

> would love to know more roguelites based purely on skill. Scourgebringer if you haven't played that one.


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Thanks man


Ariaceli

This really ought to be a two axis graph: one for "how frequently can in-game items let you win" and "how much does experience help you win"


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

I'll maybe try that


Ariaceli

They're not rougelikes, but I was thinking about how the games compared to roulette (no skill needed) and chess (no luck needed). I think rougelikes are a mix of the two


Aldreth-TC

Maybe I should make a new thread asking the question but..... which of these is the most similar to Dead Cells? The things I most value for similarities would be: •Variety of weapons, especially variety within a single run or play session. •Clear and Strategic combat without a lot of "spamming" -(Hades felt spammy to me.) •Approachable, scalar and ideally linear progression or difficulty curve. •2D platformer preferably with sidescrolling X-Axis movement as opposed to an overhead view with XY exploration.


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Probably Neon Abyss Going Under is a close second but its 3d


Aldreth-TC

Good God, mobile formatting is a nightmare.


air-dex

I would say *Rogue Legacy*, but it is not there.


Kinglink

I think you need to consider a second dimension "difficulty" aka how hard is a game to make this usable. I'm sure Spelunky and Spelunky 2 are more skill based, but I think for most people the question is going to be how challenging the game. Also like a lot of people, I think Isaac is more skill based than you're saying. There's definitely a lot of luck, but There's also a lot of rote memory that you will need. Also a lot of people are misunderstanding your graph... which is a shame because it's pretty good (It's a question on if you're more skill than luck or more luck than skill, it's NOT a question of difficulty. Also where RoR 2 is.. it's like saying it's 60 percent luck, 40 percent skill. Which you can agree with, but it's not "all luck" as people are screaming about.)


HeroesOfDundee

What did you think of Undermine? I had a lot of fun with that game, didn't find it too hard like other roguelites.


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

I looks interesting


ImPhantomic

I think that some people overestimate how much Gungeon is based on luck. Only about 5% of items/weapons are run winners, while 90% are good and 5% not so much. Gungeon can take a long time to beat, but it will geat easier over time as you learn boss patterns and strategies.


GoldenBlyat8BC

What of Nuclear Throne?


air-dex

*Slay the Spire*: Completely luck. *Dungeon of the Endless*: Completely skill. *FTL: Faster Than Light*: Neutral. *Into the Breach*: Mostly skill.


DeuceBane

Ror is completely luck? Ok


jackmman10K

I don't think spelunky 1 is entirely skill based, there's a good bit of luck there too. But spelunky 2? Absolutely not. Too frustrating because of how hard it is compared to the first


GoogleMExj9

which one would be closest to isaac in terms of gameplay?


MalcolmRoseGaming

Tierposting is bestposting


ItzLoomie

Hades? Skill? I just mashed keys and all was good


Likean_onion

is this a shitpost


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Sure


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Remember to share your opinion on either what roguelite should go where, or what another rougelite not on here would go


RollerMill

Noita would probably go in pure skill, depending on your goal you can finish the game with starting items and a bottle of acid that you can gather with some caution. Realistically you can consistently get overpowered if you play safe and know the little secrets scattered across the world, going for extreme goals every run


toothiertoast

Yeah, this list is wack


DremoPaff

Now let's all watch everyone in the comments trying to argue that their favorite roguelite is actually the most skill intensive game in history and that they are a god gamer for beating it once.


Ze___r0

Atomicrops is so painful, I really wish for a dodge/dash button


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

That would be cool though


Lolskeletons11

I'd swap hades and gungeon


ohgodnothossucks

Tbh i dont think you made it to like 5bc in dead cells to put it over EtG, if you get like plat bullets or clone youve bassicaly won


MiLotic5089

Skill vs Luck isn't really a good measure IMO. Like Gungeon takes miles more skill to win than Hades, yet I'd say still is more luck-based since Hades lets you control your 'luck' so much. Isaac takes luck with low skill, and lots of skill with shit luck, since the game goes the opposite route of Hades and just tells you to deal with what you get.


Juicen97

No shot dead cells isn’t completely skill. Very rarely can I think of a time where rng fucked me and it wasn’t a skill issue. Beating that game on 5bc is the hardest thing I’ve done in a video game. Also RoR2 should definitely be more to the right as well


Lo-fidelio

Where's Noita on this? I would put it just slightly to the left of the middle, since even tho how good are the loots in your run is a big part of the game, even with a perfect run, if you aren't skilled enough you can get fucked with ease.


xxxxD0Cxxxx

Can anyone tell me if I like Dead Cells and Hades, what others would I like for the Switch?


stupidestonian

If I may inquire where might project wingman be placed on this chart, were it to count as a rougelite (imo it does but hey what do I know)


mcravenator2222

I disagree with isaac, whilst of course the items are always randomised and the game does have luck elements, there are many strategies and ways to play the game, even with an average or low run build. Heck, the purist challenge or dailies are good examples of working with a set build (which could be low), and working from there.


Drochnathair

Hard disagree on Spelunky 2. An enemy can make your run entirely unplayable by e.g. exploding lava-pits or angering shopkeepers, even when you are on the opposite side of the level. No amount of skill can prevent that and is 100% about luck...


caffinatedgoblin

i disagree with risk of rain 2 (haven't played enough of the first one), rng is a big factor but you need to learn how to turn a bad run into a god run, and that's all skill based. knowing what to do in situations, dodging efficiently etc. i do also have 180 hours so maybe i'm just really good or biased XD


SuccessfulAwareness5

Meanwhile, Noita: BLIND LUCK AND NOTHING MORE


SpicySPaxz

As much as I love ror2, its hella luck based, like you could go a whole run without seeing a single goat hoof or something and that lack of movement would definitely fuck you over.


NailCritical

What about Synthetik and Monolith?


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

Haven't played em


TheCaledonian

I'd put Synthetik higher up towards skill. You can absolutely make any class/item/weapon work if you know what you're doing. You'll really need to strategise for Hyper Adrenaline Engineer.


Doom_bring3r

Ngl hades doesnt require much skill 32 heat and below - you just need a halfway decent build and you can breeze through the enemies.


not_my_ass

Try soul knight à free mobile game that is a dungeon game


PlayYo-KaiWatch21

It's not free on switch :(


BoahNoa

This ranking doesn’t really work with a game like Hades because it has so much meta progression. The further you’ve upgraded the mirror the less luck required. Once it’s fully upgraded you can very easily beat the game with zero boons at all. So at that point you could call it 100% skill (which I doesn’t make much sense hence this scale not being appropriate.) Also ROR1 being completely luck is laughably incorrect but assuming you haven’t played it much I can understand why it might feel that way.


bananadoppiobestboi

ETG makes sense to be there, cuz you can have an entire loadout with S tier stuff and still get shit on


death2sanity

“Here are the games I am good at; here are the ones I am not.”


BrakumOne

Please define skill.


the_fool213912893

spelunky should be on both ends tbh


Grizzly_22702

In all honesty, I agree with this. However where is Wizard of Legend? It's a great game. I'd personally put it in the mostly skill denomination.


firtlast

this is not correct in any way.


Core-of-Envy

Noita is on the farthest of the left


simonmonkey

Isaac is much higher imho. Sure, you could get moms knife, or epic fetus in the first item room, but the majority of the time, especially in this new dlc(repentance) you just get ok items, and just say, yeah i can work with this.


User91827462004

Mf have you played spelunky? Have you been killed by an alien coming from off screen? By a snap trap on a dark level? By walking out a door and being immediately killed?


da_boss69420

Does nuclear throne count as a rougelite game


VagrantOMOIKANE

I’d be curious where you put Darkest Dungeon… the RNG is unforgiving, for sure.


SharksAway11019

Why is splunky 2 so high on this list


F4ncyM4n

Am I missing something here? Spelunky 2 being in the skill catagory is just wrong chief. I haven’t gotten very far in Spelunky 2, I do watch a lot of the game, but the ability to get one shot at literally any point of your run has always been a running gag in the series. There are dumpsters filled with videos consisting of players having their runs ended because they spawned into the level. Not to mention how horrendous progressing the game can be if you have no tools due to your luck.


Ooooooo00o

Going under has nearly no luck… it’s not hard to use all the weapons in the game. Idk if the person who even made this has played the game….


JayJayGolden

idk man i feel gungeon is 80% luck lmao, i cant play that game if i dont get the right items. Only reason i beat resourceful rat is because every time i uppercut he would throw another right hook, allowing me to again stun and uppercut him.


lickmyclit6969

Once u get good enough at ror2 (or pick the right characters) luck doesnt rly matter


dOowAYng

I wonder wher some less-known roguelites would rank on that list, like monolith... I remember the game being really hard, like *touhou* level of hard (I wish I was joking)


Nova-The-Dog

Let’s be real here Noita is pure skill and luck


Grizzy-TheKiwi

where is gunfire reborn on this list


Progress456

Sinvicta is an boi YouTuber and there’s so way he’s gotten lucky 1000+ runs in a row


Cokaway

Isaac shouls be far more to the right.


The_Question_619

we gonna need to add dungeoun of the endless on this list gamer dont even debate me on that