T O P

Ah yes, Western Propaganda

Ah yes, Western Propaganda

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Um_ironbanner12342

>Read more than Western Propaganda From WHERE? ALL SOURCES STATE THAT NK IS A ETHNOFASCIST MONARCHY, AND THE CITIZEN LIVE IN HORRIBLE CONDITIONS.


NoWorth2591

Unbiased sources like official DPRK state media of course!


ARC_Trooper_Echo

I’m guessing the word of refugees who made their way to the south probably isn’t unbiased enough either.


Retmas

alright, im gonna catch shit for this, and i own it. but speaking purely on a logical basis, you arent actually wrong. there WILL be a bias of people fleeing the DPRK of people against the government. people dont flee the country because they like the country. additionally, we hear their stories through a number of lenses, none of whom are particularly pro-DPRK. i am in no way saying the DPRK is anything less than an absolute monarchy, only that we should be keenly aware of the lenses and filters we do and do not perceive information through. nothing is free of bias. least of all our own perceptions. awareness of that is a potential step in adjusting for that bias.


PerpetualRiot

It's important to remember that biased doesn't necessarily mean inaccurate.


Retmas

I would relate that to the idea that fact and truth are separate, (usually/hopefully..) related concepts. Facts dont always tell the whole truth, if that makes sense. Biased doesn't automatically mean inaccurate, but finding accuracy is easier when actively, even agressively accounting for bias. I hope that makes sense, I just woke up and I'm having trouble Words'ing what I can concieve a lot more clearly in my head.


Um_ironbanner12342

Also I feel that if your family of three generations is in jail for doing something anti government, you'll develop some bias


TheDeep1985

There seems to be a lot of evidence that Yeonmi Park has made some of her story up. One of the the best documentaries about this is called Crossing the Line. The main character is US defector who is trying to convince the audience that he is happy in NK. It's very 1984.


UWCG

I'm sure NK citizens would strongly disagree! I mean, sure, it's because if they spoke the truth, them and three generations of their family would be locked up in camps, but hey, you know...


TheDeep1985

It's worse than that. NK is all they've ever known. Many of them are probably convinced by the propaganda.


KatieTheAromantic

I bet if an article from a Asian democracy said that North Korea and China suck as hell they would still say it was western propaganda.


Raven_Raving

literally no


Caelus5

I never understood these arguments, it's reminiscent of the "holocaust never happened but golly gee do I wish it did" logic (or rather, utter lack thereof). If the country is half as communist as it claims to be, and the people genuinely have the power and the means of production, why is it so critically underdeveloped? Why do people so desperately want out? Western propaganda cannot change the amount of light the country emits at night, or how many people want to escape the DPRK. These bitches really just be taking what dictators claim as gospel.


Optimus_Rhyme_82

they just claim the satellite light map of DPRK is propaganda, that the defectors don't exist, that all of the data from international oberservers over there viewing the multiple famines and repressions are all liars etc. Nothing gets past my tankie firewall, exactly like the American conservatives that are in their own little world. Information and truth as a commodified political identity baby. If something challenges your world view you can just find another youtuber or podcaster who agrees. That's why I hate political streamers basically.


balljointedmae

So complete detachment from reality basically. This is on a flat-earth level of detachment


Optimus_Rhyme_82

Pretty much so yeah


Gretschish

But but but muh glorious leader!


heyutheresee

And why do they worship single persons if they're so democratic.


Caelus5

Good point, and I think one that isn't made enough.


tolerablepartridge

There is evidence that many defectors exaggerate their testimonies due to perverse incentives, but this is too often used to "poison the well" and make outsized arguments about DPRK being some kind of utopia. One simply must be willfully ignorant to not think 3 sequential leaders being grandfather/father/son is a *huge* red flag.


Caelus5

Yeah, and regardless of the exaggeration my point was more people don't flee to the neighbouring capitalist countries if it is indeed some workers utopia as they claim


Wonderfulwomen1122

You’re talking about the same people who defend the semi-secular monarchy of Syria.


hitbycars

And why aren't they able to, I don't know, LEAVE? And if it's such a glorious and amazing place to live, shouldn't they also have a booming tourist industry that brings in foreign money to visit their communist paradise?


TubThumpin-

silly lib, obviously South Korea has developed a magic shroud over glorious nation dprk. that's why there is no light being emitted.


Silly_Window_308

Ahem, the underdevelopment might have something to do with the embargo on things like diesel, don't you think?


TrespassersWilliam29

They have a long border with China who is more than happy to sell them things


OllieGarkey

> the embargo on things like diesel That only happened when China decided it didn't like North Korea playing with nukes in 2017. Until then, there were zero effective sanctions on NK, because they could just buy whatever they wanted from China, and were often getting significant aid from both them and the Soviet Union when it existed. The "lack of development" is not a three year old problem.


Silly_Window_308

Ok thanks


OllieGarkey

No problem. Sorry you got downvoted for asking a question.


Silly_Window_308

It's just that tankies are becoming a bit of an obsession


HUNDmiau

My tipp then: Step away a bit and focus on other stuff. Anything becoming an obsession is not good.


Silly_Window_308

I was talking about people in the subreddit, not me. In another comment they said i can't like the URSS anthem because it's a "genocider anthem"


HUNDmiau

Some people do, but honestly, I can also understand why. In the last few years, they have infected a lot of previously quite good places on all social media platforms. People are becoming sick and some become obsessed. Some do take it overboard, true. I like the Soviet Anthem as well. Heck, I like some old german nationalist songs from 1848 revolution. (No one can tell me Was ist des deutschen Vaterland is not an absolute banger) and some songs from and about the DDR. Heck, I listen to Oktoberklub occasionnaly. Good music, but shit politics. Some people are just overly purists


Silly_Window_308

Yeah. But maybe I was wrong, i checked the guy's account and he was in enoughcommiespam and rightjerk subreddits, so he was likely a rightwing. Bet he likes the US anthem despite the native american genocide. Ridiculous people


balljointedmae

“Don’t listen to “western” propaganda as gospel! Listen to “eastern” propaganda as gospel! What? Me? Engaging in Orientalism? Psh that’s stupid.”


paco926

When you ask for a source that isn’t “Western Propaganda” and they send you state propaganda and a YouTube video.


SamsungHeir

[A North Korean farmer being called a "DPRK comrade" by a western teenage communist](https://i.imgur.com/GXYgxta.jpeg)


AikoHeiwa

>Comrades in the DPRK have so much say in governance Parliamentary 'elections' in North Korea have one candidate, who is chosen by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea, per constituency and electors effectively cannot vote against their single 'choice' because voting against the chosen candidate for one's constituency (or refusing to vote in general) is considered to be treason and, if an elector wished to do so, they would have to go to a separate voting booth in order to cross out the candidate's name. And of course, requiring people who wish to vote against someone go to a separate voting booth is making a complete mockery of the principal of the secret ballot that North Korea claims to utilize for all elections in their nation. In addition, [the actual constitution for North Korea](http://www.naenara.com.kp/index.php/Main/index/en/politics?arg_val=constitution) states, under article 11 of chapter I, that 'The Democratic People's Republic of Korea shall conduct all activities under the leadership of the Workers' Party of Korea' or, in less formal language, the Workers' Party of Korea is the only political party that is legally allowed to ever govern in North Korea under their constitution. But yeah, they have 'so much say in governance' all right.


Mesadeath

But it's the PEOPLE'S republic! The WORKER'S party! They wouldn't ***LIE,*** would they?!


buttmunchery2000

I swear one day we'll find a tanky defending the Nazis because their party says they're socialist and facists would never do something so deceptive lol


Mesadeath

Shit, they basically already do by trying to legitimize Stalin, Mao, Xi, and the Kim dynasty.


Pantheon73

There was a Tankie called "Death to Western Imperialism" that said that he wouldn´t be wondered if the Holocaust was western propaganda.


durian-conspiracy

The Tankie argument is the vote itself for the single candidate is only a formality and *The Real Election* actually happened beforehand in the village townhall in an amazing, magical display of *Real Democracy* where all the people participate and choose in consensus a representative.


Caelus5

that 'constitution' reads more like self insert fanfiction than a national declaration, first time I've ever heard of "Kimilsungism"


Progress_Wrong

The people's mass grave and rendering plant.


SawedOffLaser

Stop reading western propaganda and read NK propaganda instead.


ZhouSeiBeets

shroedinger's nation, simultaneously power to the people and an authoritarian necrocracy.


Firebird432

“If you aren’t murdered, things are actually pretty good”


Inner_Partisan

I feel pretty confident in saying that, as a rule, cults of personality are "cringe" and "not poggers".


kadaverin

Yeah, people forced to cry at their former leaders public monument under threat of being accused of seditious behavior are just showing how much they love their country.


fucky_thedrunkclown

I find that tankies are similar to nazis in that anytime you present them with evidence they don't like they simply just attack the source. Just replace "western" with "jewish".


Confident_Ad6435

Why has the Kim family been a leader for so long like a monarchy? If it’s similar to how the power passed between the bushes, that’s proof they aren’t socialist. And why can’t tourists just meet the North Koreans so they can see for themselves? They can easily travel to China to get around the US travel restrictions


Pantheon73

[It´s not that easy...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ9zng2S810)


198Throwawayy

I don’t want to ever defend the CCP but even Chinese citizens in China think North Korea is pretty bad. They look at it and say it was how China was like under Mao.


Confident_Ad6435

Tankies don’t even understand that the people in modern china(the ones that support the government) don’t support Mao


whosdatboi

Mao is remembered as a glorious hero of the war and of revolution, not really as a governor.


Steve-But-Cooler

Those ‘defectors’… Obvious CIA agents…


gschmoke22

Is that a pornhub comment?


DylTyrko

Curious Cat


Barniiking

"D your own research"


JohnEGirlsBravo

Funny thing about tankies and pseudo-anti-imperialists is that they encourage (or so they say) "media literacy" when it comes to, say, corporate media and Western media sources. BUT THEN THEY GIVE STATE MEDIA FROM THEIR FAVORED REGIMES THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT NEARLY 100% OF THE TIME (if not 100%) In this case, go big or go home- be fully media-literate, or admit you're a shill for certain governments/states. I saw this really-goofy video about "how democratic" NK is- though I forget the name of the channel or what the person called himself (something cringe, probably)- and it was THE DUMBEST, MOST-GULLIBLE SHIT EVER! He was just parroting, basically, \*what the Constitution and various NK laws claimed\* about "how it's really run", as if, for example, countries' leaders, oftentimes, NEVER SELECTIVELY ENFORCE OR, AT TIMES, OUTRIGHT IGNORE certain good laws and/or limits to their power! For example... if the Supreme "People's" Assembly truly "holds the most power" in North Korea, then.. why in the FUCK haven't they, like, done a damn thing to CRACK DOWN ON THE INSIDIOUS HARD-LABOR AND PRISON CAMPS THERE?? Are you telling me that the "Big-time people's representatives", supposedly, are "too afraid" or "don't care" much about the people in them? If the SPA is "so powerful and representative", why haven't they, at least, like, \*set-up a commission or 2 to STUDY THE CAMPS' CONDITIONS, EFFECTS ON INMATES, ETC.\*? I mean, surely they must be at least SOMEWHERE AWARE of their existence (or at least rumors about them, esp. since us OUTSIDE North Korea hear about them quite a bit)?? Checkmate, tankies :P


JohnEGirlsBravo

Also... the whole songbin 'class' system within "communist" North Korea really 'debunks' the notion that, "The people rule", much less that the national legislature "has supreme power" It's just like the fiction that the NPC, "Holds supreme power" within China's national government. Technically that's 'true', according to its constitution, but... the fact is, the Politburo seems to have far more \*actual\* power, in the long run. And the NPC, until, like the 1990s, was more-or-less a complete rubberstamp of the Politburo and State Council. Even today, it's far from a place for "vigorous discussion and debate" ...except maybe \*behind closed doors\* among the NPC Standing Committee, which is only, like... 200 of the deputies (less than 1/10th of the total) Hell, the Supreme People's Court BARELY has any "authority" to \*hold the national government accountable\*. In fact, supposedly it's \*subordinate to and under the jurisdiction, ultimately, of the NPC\*. The current chief justice, in fact, has even claimed that time-honored democratic traditions like 'checks and balances' and 'separation of powers' are "erroneous Western notions", lmfao I'm not even get into the CCP's dubious idea of what "rule of law" \*really "means"\*, cuz that would take all day :p given these trends, why should I believe DPRK is "way better" in terms of 'democracy'? Hell, even Mao's "New Democracy" was a SHAM! Just how many 'representatives' within Mao's government- esp. at the local and provincial levels- were ever elected or chosen thanks to the 'input of the people'? rather than appointed from on-high? probably very few


zaraishu

North Koreans: "At least I've got my proletarian dictatorship."