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LGBTQ+ Mega Thread

LGBTQ+ Mega Thread

gerundhome

I fully respect the LGBTQ+ community, and understand why some transgender or non binary people want to use pronouns that they feel better represent them. I always get confused when someone asks to be referred to with the "they/them" pronouns, and thats the one thing i dislike. Every single time i read an article where "they" is used for a single person, i have to reread it a few times to try to figure out if its several person and i missed a part, or just a single non-binary person. Isnt there other ways to refer to yourselves that dont confuse the hell of people?


SomeLakitu

Singular they has been use for several centuries now.


gerundhome

I wasnt aware of that.


fries_supreme2

Companies having pride flags, even if they don't actually care about gay issues, helps normalize being gay and imo is a great thing.


Trav57

i think it just desensitizes people to the flag and removes the meaning from it


fries_supreme2

The nazi symbols and flags being everywhere in germany back in the day didn't desensitize anyone to nazis so the pride flag won't desensitize anyone to gay pride.


Trav57

hm good point


[deleted]

Transphobia is becoming more and more prevalent on Reddit recently.


jimbo_slice829

Why do you think that?


[deleted]

I've noticed a lot more of it recently. Probably because of Pride month.


bluefishegg

Is it, or is it just becoming more noticeable because the transphobes are getting louder. To me it kinda seems like it's been pretty constant, with a dip in Terfs after their subs were taken down It's all impossible to say though, either option is just as plausible


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Wismuth_Salix

We can laugh - but the r/onejoke of “lol I identify as noun” is played the fuck out. We can’t laugh at the same punchline for decades, we’re not the audience of The Big Bang Theory. (bazinga!)


ohay_nicole

I'm a fan of "I'm going to identify as a fucking problem" in response to transphobia. But that's subverting the one joke.


Wismuth_Salix

I think [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/eStsMTQ9GNyH8JJZ7) is kinda funny.


[deleted]

"Transwomen are women" is a circular definition and a case of meaningless [private language](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/private-language/). The standard definition, and the common understanding, of gender refers to sex, not self-identity; and this won't change because, contrary to self-identity, sex actually matters.


VedDdlAXE

But you're just incorrect. Gender is a psychological thing and it's proven that everyone perceives their own and gender in general different.


DiplomaticRogue

It always amazes me how upset people get over other people's identities that don't affect them in any way. I'm trans. My birth certificate says female. I can identify however I want.


[deleted]

I completely agree. Your mind is your own, you can identify however you want (and tbf it's not like anybody could stop you from doing it anyway). You can also dress however you like, and gets whatever medical treatment you wish (if you're adult), and date whoever you like (consensually). But your self-identity is only your business, and you're not entitled to special treatment because of it. I.e. you can't demand to be treated differently from other female people.


No_Entrance_4122

People who aren't adults can get medical treatment too. Source: am 15 on hormones, with surgery scheduled in 6 months.


bluefishegg

>you're not entitled to special treatment because of it Special treatment like equal employment, housing and healthcare protections as everyone else? >you can't demand to be treated differently from other female people Who's asking for that? And what are they asking for?


JustAGamer14

What's the so called special treatment? Being called the correct pronouns? That's just called being a respectful person


MisanthropeNotAutist

It's "respectful" to capitulate to the demands of people whether or not you agree with them? No, you can't hide behind "respect", unless you're willing to try and understand the side of people that don't really care about "correct pronouns" (which aren't for you to decide).


MAbsol12

I mean my correct pronouns are for me to decide if by calling me the wrong pronouns makes me feel extremely uncomfortable and/or depressed.


DiplomaticRogue

>You can also dress however you like, and gets whatever medical treatment you wish (if you're adult) Actually I'm 16 and I've already started medications. >you can't demand to be treated differently from other female people. Oh yeah for sure, people already treat me as female because I am female.


WarBrilliant8782

> The standard definition, and the common understanding, of gender refers to sex, not self-identity; and this won't change because, contrary to self-identity, sex actually matters. This is hilariously wrong, from a scientific, sociological, and even a common-sense understanding.


[deleted]

I don't know what science has to do with this. Science doesn't define language or social categories, it's descriptive not prescriptive. As for common sense, care to explain why dictionaries define "woman" as "adult human female"? Why don't people "ask" for each other's gender? In fact, can you even define "woman"?


WarBrilliant8782

It's funny that you think one's sex is indistinguishable from gender but when you meet people you don't measure their genitals.


[deleted]

Science has proven that trans women's brains behave more like cis women's brains than men's brains.


Simply_Sky

Source? Am genuinely curious


[deleted]

Check the oldest comment on this megathread. Should be a collection of academic articles on the matter.


[deleted]

So what? We don't classify people based on brain structure, because we can't see it and even if we could it would not be socially salient anyway.


Wismuth_Salix

We can’t usually see someone’s dick when we meet them either and if we do we call the police rather than worry about their pronouns.


[deleted]

What organ is responsible for building, developing, and hosting somebody's identity?


[deleted]

One's own brain hosts one's own self-identity. Other people's brains host one's own social identity. My point is the the latter doesn't depend on the former. How you see yourself has no bearing on how other people see you.


[deleted]

So, if somebody has a woman's brain, that doesn't make them a woman?


golvin67

And now suddenly it matters what‘s socially salient, does it?


[deleted]

Trans women. Not "transwomen". You don't call black women "blackwomen", or short women "shortwomen". Transgender is an adjective. Not a noun.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

>Transwomen aren't women though And There's the transphobia. And added on top we find a big scoop of stupidity. Good job, buddy! You don't know how biology OR English grammar work.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

I hope you never have kids.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

I hope you are sterile! You would raised bigoted little shit-goblins just like yourself!


visser47

in what ways does sex "actually matter"?


[deleted]

* People can only reproduce with the opposite sex, and reproduction is important both individually and socially. * The sexes are different enough on average in size, strength, endurance, and psychology that sex-based stereotypes can be useful heuristics when lacking case specific information. * The same differences make certain kind of knowledges and preferences more relevant for one's own sex, meaning same-sex imitation is a good strategy (like most self-similarity imitation). Meanwhile, why would anyone care about someone's else gender identity? How does your self-identity affect me in any way?


Thick_Umpire_722

You're so right about how it doesn't affect you in any way shape or form, never has and never will


[deleted]

Correct. Which is why there is no need to ever treat people differently based on their self-identity, hence self-identity based categories are not salient.


[deleted]

So... You believe that people shouldn't be allowed to have an identity, because their identity doesn't matter to you?


[deleted]

I don't know what that means. How do you prevent someone from having an identity? My point is that self-identity doesn't matter, hence should not be the basis for discrimination. For example there is no reason to treat transwomen differently from men (except for individual differences, of course).


DiplomaticRogue

>My point is that self-identity doesn't matter, hence should not be the basis for discrimination. Okay that is a ridiculous statement. Should I treat every religious person as if they were atheist and completely disrespect their religion? No, because that would be discrimination. It's a part of their self-identity and I need to respect it, even if I don't agree with their views.


E_T_Girl

Only when you are visiting doctor


visser47

even then, dont hormones and surgeries change a plenty? I'd put forward that they both matter in the case of doctors


E_T_Girl

There can be some trans specific problems like blood cloth, but yea, otherwise it's the same


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ohay_nicole

Common identity sounds like a pretty good start to me.


BigLargeCongDong

I can suck a dick doesn’t mean I’m gay I could jerk to guys doesn’t mean I’m gay


ohay_nicole

People of several genders have what you’re looking to suck.


VedDdlAXE

true you could be Bisexual or Pansexual or any other sexuality other than gay that likes men Or you could be a Straight Woman!


Someonedm

I have [a song](https://youtu.be/GxRkHoTlC08) just for that but it’s in Hebrew


[deleted]

YOu're right. It means you're bi, pan, omni, or gay, just to list a few options.


BigLargeCongDong

Wtf is onmi is the invincible


VedDdlAXE

Omni-Man is Omni?!


BigLargeCongDong

Idk


[deleted]

As an LGBTQ person, the need for everyone to have their own special label is absolutely ridiculous and out of hand. Do you really need all these new made-up terms to specify which genitals and which brains you're attracted to? What's next, are you going to need a label to say that you're only attracted to men every Tuesday and Wednesday but attracted to women the rest of the week? Like come on. Just say "hey I'm into you" or "nah not into you." Simple. These people coming up with all these new terms and labels makes the community look like nothing but a joke. Those people really are special snowflakes.


VedDdlAXE

guys stfu I am DreamNotFoundsexual


[deleted]

What would you like your new pronouns to be? Gotta be inclusive! Create anything you want!


VedDdlAXE

On a sidenote I genuinely saw someone that used Tommyself and Tubboself pronouns and I cannot find a single way that could be genuine


[deleted]

Oh jeez. And this is why nobody takes the LGBTQ community seriously anymore lol


[deleted]

As an LBTQ+ person, the need for people to complain about what other people want to call themselves is absolutely ridiculous and out of hand. Do you really need to tell somebody they aren't valid just because you don't understand their identity or haven't lived their life? What's next, are you going to start gatekeeping anyone and everyone who has an identity or sexuality that is slightly out of line with what you consider "necessary"? Like, come on. Just say "I hate people who don't fit into my personal ideals of how people should behave" or "nah, I'm not going to respect you, because I think that my world-view is objectively better than yours, and you're challenging my self-assured security". These people ragging on all these new terms and labels makes the community look like they can't stand together on the most simple of things. Those people really are the special snowflakes.


[deleted]

Nah, the snowflakes here are the people who need to create their own made-up terms to make themselves feel good because they're too special to just say they're bisexual or lesbian or gay. Bisexual is already a spectrum, why do they need to add on ridiculous terms? No wonder cis people call the community an alphabet soup. Everyone's got to have their own special label now 🙄


[deleted]

Pan erasure is a bad look for you, sweety.


[deleted]

Call it whatever you'd like 🤷‍♀️ I just don't see the need to create an alphabet soup to say that you're attracted to some people and not to others.


[deleted]

LMAO. Sorry, sugar, but republicans aren't going to love you no matter how much you shit on other LGBTQ+ people\~


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Nice strawman. Funny when you're identifying as the father of a giant interstellar moth.


[deleted]

Not quite sure why politics are being brought into this, but okay...?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Not a "he", sweetheart.


[deleted]

That makes sense. If you don't completely accept every simple made up sexuality, you're automatically a republican Trump lover 🙄 at least in their minds.


ohay_nicole

>Like come on. Just say "hey I'm into you" or "nah not into you." Simple. That's also an argument against the labels Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual.


[deleted]

Not as often as with the special label crowd. I've started saying less and less what my orientation is and instead just say "I'm into whoever I click with." Easier.


Someonedm

That would be kind of insulting. I’m okay with not being someone else’s type, because I’m not an attractive person, so don’t tell me “you don’t click with me” if my personality isn’t the problem. Be straightforward and honest, please.


[deleted]

I mean, to each their own. I've been straightforward that way in the past and the guy lost his shit on me and threatened to rape me. So 🤷‍♀️


Someonedm

Yeah, I can see that happening. Sorry that it happened to you.


ohay_nicole

I'm all for no one having to adopt any particular label, and I fall in the same boat with my orientation. I'm also for people creating the language they need to describe themselves.


ohay_nicole

A reminder: conversion therapy doesn't work.


bluefishegg

And saying that trans people just need therapy, not to transition is advocating for conversion therapy


ohay_nicole

Cishets: There should be therapy to make people comfortable in their unaltered bodies. QTs: So conversion therapy. Cishets: No, not conversion therapy. Some sort of talk therapy to convert a tran to a cis.


bluefishegg

They always go so vague at that point


No_Entrance_4122

That's because they know that nothing they say from that point on would be backed by science.


bluefishegg

Also, they have no other solutions, they just want us gone and going into detail will just let the mask slip


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SouthernYoghurt9

Jesus christ "who knows what I'll identify a year from now" is not what an honest person comming out would say.


Someonedm

I don’t know, my sister has came out to my mom as bicurious. Sure, some people like me would rather be 100% sure before they come out, but people like Demi and my sister who live in a welcoming and liberal environment can be free to do that and that’s a valid choice.


ohay_nicole

I've known people who have shifted from non-binary to binary and vice versa. It can take a while to figure yourself out.


Thick_Umpire_722

But they're a celebrity trying to gain gay clout, that's what i think at least. With elliot page it's different because when he's just an actor. Demi is an influencer who' trying to keep up with all the "new things"


ohay_nicole

Seems like something that's going to sort itself out quickly enough if they're just faking it. Maybe we shouldn't default to such accusations.


doasmommasez

I should not have to invite the creepy transwoman who hit on all the girls in the office toy works hen night, and I'm pretty pissed off at the infrance that I'm a transphobe for not wanting to. That is all.


[deleted]

Let's break this down on the legal side of things. Office parties, under equal opportunity laws, must be open to any member of a company, regardless of race, age, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity. By not inviting "The creepy transwoman"(we can unpack the bigotry in that later), you are, therefore, committing unlawful discrimination.


doasmommasez

This is not an office party and I did not make the creepy transwoman remarks so you can just fuck.all the way off.


[deleted]

>I should not have to invite the *creepy transwoman* It's in your post. Don't get pissy at me because you said something shitty.


MoonlightxRose

Oooof and you’re in HR?!


Chronoset1

kinda. she's still a woman. obviously lacking some tack but not everyone are good people. has anyone approached her, told her that she's off putting?


upt0wn_rat

Using the phrase “___ identifies as.....” when introducing people who aren’t cis is not the inclusive language some people think it is. Most people I’ve seen use it are well-meaning and just trying to be supportive, but it implies that that person’s gender is not what they *are* but rather just something that they claim to be. It would be like introducing a French friend as someone who “identifies as a French person”


wolfpack_charlie

Can r/Cringetopia just go ahead and change their name to r/weHateQueerPeople


Anonymous___2020___

There's still some decent cringe stuff every once in a while. Not sure where else I'd get it from (on Reddit).


TheCentralizer

I thought they mostly mocked republicans


Wismuth_Salix

These days it’s mostly mocking queer TikTok teens.


Agnostic_Pagan

Mocking people because they are queer: homophobia. Mocking people who happen to be queer: Fine.


Wismuth_Salix

Yeah but when the mockery of someone “who happens to be queer” is “We need a purge of these degenerates (+200)” the problem becomes more apparent.


Agnostic_Pagan

Yes, but from what I saw, that's not what was on r/cringetopia.


[deleted]

You don't use it much, then.


TheCentralizer

I just checked. First thing i saw was a hamster video where their sexuality is determined, definitely fucking cringeworthy, and then i also saw a video where a person (femboy) acted super fucking cringe. I saw a contemporary post of a normal woman doing it. I checked comments and there were some people being hompphobic, and they were downvoted into oblivion. Point being, theyre not pieces of shit, and if you think that sub is doing that, then you should leave cringetopia because you yourself are cringe


Wismuth_Salix

And the title of that hamster video is “we are regressing” and comments calling queer people deranged are at +100.


TheCentralizer

I literally double, and then triple checked. All i see is people saying its obviously satire. I scrolled down fucking far. I saw someone say God needs to flood the earth again, but thats a cookie cutter response whenever someone sees something cringe, you cannot assume its because he is queer, and that is assuming that person is in fact queer, and further it was one withh no upvotes and i only saw it because i scrolled until my finger started bleeding. Please shut up with that, its not true, there are a few i bet but not that i saw, likely because they were downvoted to hell or nobody saw it


ihavetwelvesads

Transphobia should be treated more like science denial than discrimination. As opposed to racism, which most people understand is scientifically bullshit, a sizable portion of people genuinely do believe that “science disproves transgenders”.


elementgermanium

It’s both


wolfpack_charlie

This is a really good point! Science supports that * Gender is a social construct, distinct from biological sex * Human expression of gender varies and does not fit a discrete binary of male/female * The only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is to transition in an environment that is supportive and affirming of that person's gender It's always so infuriating when transphobes paint the other side as being anti-science when they are the ones who disagree with science


BigLargeCongDong

If gay means happy then I’m straight af


wolfpack_charlie

Everyone complaining about the Progress Pride flag's design and "redundancy" doesn't care about the actual flag, and just wants to complain about queer people. The pride flag has had multiple revisions, so the one you're thinking of is not the "original" anyway. And even ignoring that, this isn't a replacement! It's a variation and there have always been variations of the pride flag to draw attention to specific issues. For example, in the early days of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, someone made a pride flag including a black stripe to represent those who were lost to HIV/AIDS. It was not redundant - it drew attention to a specific issue, and so does the progress pride flag. The chevrons on the left draw attention to the struggles still faced by trans people and queer people of color. Though we've made huge strides in progress, there is much left to be done. Some people in the queer community still face marginalization and are still fighting for basic human rights. That is worth drawing attention to. At the end of the day, the pride flag is for queer people. It's supposed to be loud, it's supposed to draw attention to specific issues, and we are *not* concerned if non queer people care for the design of it.


VedDdlAXE

as a queer person I just am not a fan of triangles in flags


ohay_nicole

Related, I don't care if white LGBTQ+ people don't like the PoC focused Pride flags.


fries_supreme2

The people ive seen complaining about the flag online such as kat blaque, ive seen others as well, aren't white.


VedDdlAXE

I think most people are more mad about the big triangle than the brown/black lines. There's brown and black in another pride flag people use way more often than the progress flag


ohay_nicole

I remember people being mad about the Philly Pride flag as well, and I got the impression it was mostly white people in the community who were mad about it.


VedDdlAXE

fair enough ig but for the progress one I just think it looks kinda ugly. That and Trans is already included in LGBTQ whereas POC isn't *inherently* an LGBTQ topic, so it made more sense when the brown/black lines were added


ohay_nicole

Thinking it looks ugly is valid, and there are many Pride flags I don't like on a purely aesthetic level. Yet I'm happy to see people rock those flags because they feel represented by their flags. While trans is literally in the acronym, some cis LGBs have been trying to push us out or throw us under the bus for decades. It seems they need a reminder beyond the trans flag.


VedDdlAXE

Fair enough I guess. Still prefer the normal one with the black and brown.


ohay_nicole

And that's fair. I'm equally happy to see the Philly Pride flag as I am the Progress Pride flag.


wolfpack_charlie

Exactly


Pikagirl541

The pride flag does not need new colors to represent race. I don't doubt that there's racism in the queer community (every group of humans will have assholes) but adding race represention to something that was never supposed to represent race doesn't make sense to me. To the best of my knowledge pride is about sexuality and gender; if you're not straight **and** cis, you're included regardless of your race. I like the push to make people aware of the contributions to the community made by people of color. We should know our history free of whitewashing and censorship. I want the "won't date someone because of their race" crowd to know they're not welcome. I just feel this particular method doesn't make sense, like how it wouldn't make sense to add autisim representation and/or disabled representation. Again, if you're not straight **and** cis you are already included.


VedDdlAXE

I personally like the black and brown mostly cos it isn't really included in a rainbow. Well brown is but black isn't. I'm all for Black being in pride flags. Brown maybe too. But black definitely


ohay_nicole

It’s not on LGBTQ+ PoC to fix the entire community’s racism so that they feel welcome.


Exhausted-gay

It was designed to counter racism in one specific place but got more wildly adopted at some point.


wolfpack_charlie

The chevrons on the left represent trans people, queer people of color, and those lost to AIDS


chekeymonk10

Off the top of my head, i believe it was made to counter a gay bar that refused to serve PoC. It since has added the trans flag colours


Wismuth_Salix

Yes. It was in Philadelphia, PA in 2017.


Geek_Queen2016

I have no issue with Transgender women. Trans women are women, and I’m more than happy to welcome them into the community I guess you could say. But I don’t want to be called a “period-haver, birthing-person, and any other cracked names.” I am a woman. That’s what I identify as. I don’t want to be classified as anything else. It makes me feel erased and unrepresented now. I feel as though biological women are going to be pushed out of favor for being “cis” and I’ll get called “far-right” or “transphobic” for preferring to be called a WOMAN. I’m even fine with Biological woman if we have to make that distinction for whatever reason. TL;DR: Please don’t call women “birth-givers” or some weird other name to be more inclusive to transwomen. Transgender Women are Women. But don’t erase biological women too. We can all be women together For all of the people in the comments literally re-typing the same thing bee and over again: 1) When discussing medical issues I take no problem with these terms. Everyone deserves to have proper medical care based on their needs 2) Yes, I have seen this IRL in article headlines. It’s what started the whole “JK Rowling is Transphobic” thing. 3) I think something I said got misinterpreted, I don’t mind being called cis. Im sorry if it came across that way.


No_Entrance_4122

Yeah I actually agree that these terms should only be used in medical settings and only when they are necessary. Trans men don't want to be grouped in with women, who are the majority of people with periods, unless it's something actually relating to periods or birth or things we actually experience. And no one should be using "birthing person" to describe a singular person if that person identifies as a woman. It's unnecessary. And terms like "uterus person" are gross because it makes the uterus seem like a way bigger part of us than it needs to be. I disagree with you on the cis thing though. Saying cis is better than saying biological because its a direct contrast with trans, whereas biological isn't a direct contrast since trans women who have medically transitions can have many traits that people consider biologically female.


Geek_Queen2016

I don’t have an issue with “Cis” I’m sorry if it came across that I did. That was not my intention


No_Entrance_4122

Ah sorry, then I agree with most of the rest of your post.


Chronoset1

>I have no issue with Transgender women. Trans women are women, and I’m more than happy to welcome them into the community I guess you could say. But I don’t want to be called a “period-haver, birthing-person, and any other cracked names.” I am a woman. you realize that's for the trans men, and afab non-binary individuals right? all the rest of your BS aside trans women get enough shit, if your gonna be mad, at least be mad at the right people


bluefishegg

Did you actually read her comment? She very clearly is trans friendly, but had a slight misconception (check her profile, she has made trans flag stuff in animal crossing). I know that most people who come on here are assholes and that makes people automatically assume that everyone is. But sometimes people are well meaning, but have a misconception. Read the room.. Save your tone for the people who actually are transphobic (there are plenty in this thread)...


Chronoset1

yes, I read her bloody comment. it doesn't change the fact she's blaming trans women for an issue that fundamentally isn't ours to claim


bluefishegg

Yes, because that's what every bit of misinformation about us is doing.. People who aren't trans won't necessarily see the fallacies in it. She had one misconception, there's no point in being hostile.. Calmly explain what's wrong with it.. Don't attack allies because of a slight bit of misinformation..


Chronoset1

not my fault she can't read. that wasn't even hostile. is there something I'm missing? it was extremely direct, corrected her, stated i wasn't addressing anything else in the comment, and that we aren’t fond of being blamed for others problems as we have enough shit coming our way


bluefishegg

>if your gonna be mad, at least be mad at the right people This is setting a hostile tone from the start, because you're belittling her and implying that she's just some irrelevant angry person >hello? you can read yes? This is a dismissive way to push for an aggressive response.. Like a "come at me".. People don't have to respond to you when you clearly are looking for a fight >not my fucking problem. Starting off like this is screaming hostility.. >you just don't know the difference between a trans woman or a trans man it seems. She very clearly does and very clearly sees trans women as women, trans men as men and non-binary people as non-binary.. >you're just mad at the wrong people, and it looks pretty damn stupid. Again, belittling her and implying that she's just some irrelevant angry person. But now you're adding an insult..


Chronoset1

>This is setting a hostile tone from the start, because you're belittling her and implying that she's just some irrelevant angry person tell me she's not. not only are her concerns completely none impactful she doesn't even realize who she's mad at. >This is a dismissive way to push for an aggressive response in response to her very dismissive comment. I'm not required to be a bigger person >Starting off like this is screaming hostility.. I feel its more dismissive a few comments down. to each their own. >She very clearly does and very clearly sees trans women as women, trans men as men and non-binary people as non-binary.. thats cool. the bare minimum, but good. but if she's gonna blame issues from one group to another that isn't cool >>you're just mad at the wrong people, and it looks pretty damn stupid. > >Again, belittling her and implying that she's just some irrelevant angry person. But now you're adding an insult.. that was entirely intentional when she has obviously not read the comments.


bluefishegg

>tell me she's not. not only are her concerns completely none impactful she doesn't even realize who she's mad at. She's not.. Her concerns clearly come from the large amount of misinformation about us.. No one knows every subject and every bit of misinformation about a group they're not a part of.. Sometimes we all get annoyed at misinformation, which we don't know is false >in response to her very dismissive comment. I'm not required to be a bigger person To me, she didn't read as dismissive, but rather tired of the hostile tone that some people have been giving her for a slight bit of misinformation.. You're absolutely not required to be a bigger person, but again save your anger for the many people in this thread who actually are transphobic >I feel its more dismissive a few comments down. to each their own. That statement I was responding to only read as a "come at me" to me >thats cool. the bare minimum, but good. but if she's gonna blame issues from one group to another that isn't cool Which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of people (certainly in this thread).. Once again, no one is up to date on every subject about a group they're not a part of.. But she definitely is supportive.. >that was entirely intentional when she has obviously not read the comments. >that was entirely intentional when she has obviously not read the comments. She was clearly more annoyed at what she saw as unearned hostility.. You made two comments with no substantive argument other than "target trans men instead".. You only talked about normalization after she very clearly took issue with your tone


Chronoset1

this woman has access to the internet, the drive to complain about an issue, but no desire to make sure it's justified. there is only a few reasons one may do that, and none of em are good. I wasn't arguing, I was telling her she had the wrong people. honestly I see her problem as a non-issue but I wasn't going to address that because honestly I don't care to. I wanted her to correct her statement to reflect her issue with the right people.


Geek_Queen2016

Read the comment above. At least read the entire thing before you come for me for literally no reason


Chronoset1

I did, obviously you didn't extend the same courtesy


Chronoset1

hello? you can read yes? this isn't for trans women. we can't give birth, we got no problem with motherhood, frankly a little envious. but using terms like birthing parent or period havers, or even vagina owners, are for the benefit of trans men. because they may still experience those things, but aren't women


Geek_Queen2016

I’m not going to argue with someone looking for a fight. I said “I have no problem with people using these terms medically because everyone has the right to have care specialized to their needs.” You don’t need to attack me or my intelligence. It’s not very becoming of you. I’m not sorry you got offended over my personal preference. I’m not sorry that you didn’t read it I’m not sorry for your bad attitude. What I am sorry for is for people treating you differently because your trans that’s never right. But I’m not that person.


Chronoset1

>“I have no problem with people using these terms medically because everyone has the right to have care specialized to their needs.” You don’t need to attack me or my intelligence. It’s not very becoming of you. not my fucking problem. using those terms outside of the medical field normalizes them. people get used to seeing them. regardless, your entire tirade is targeted at trans men, the men who were born with female typical anatomy. you have said *trans women* this entire time. at least know a little about who your "opinion" actually involves. I wasn't even addressing anything else you just don't know the difference between a trans woman or a trans man it seems.


Geek_Queen2016

I’m not going to engage you anymore. You’re either a troll or you’re just angry and that I can’t help you with.


Chronoset1

thats your right. getting mad at trans women for the issues of trans men. you're just mad at the wrong people, and it looks pretty damn stupid.


bluefishegg

Tldr: You are a woman! ❤️ The terms aren't about trans women. Cis and trans are just opposite descriptors (like tall and short). The term biological woman is kinda icky to me and has some issues (see full for details). >I don’t want to be called a “period-haver, birthing-person, and any other cracked names.” I am a woman. Damn right you are a woman! Those terms have nothing to do with trans women though. They are a proposed way for medical personnel to not misgender trans men and female assigned non-binary people while treating them for things which involve having a uterus. They're also so medical personnel don't imply that women without periods ([only 51.98% of the UK female population are of reproductive age according to these statistics](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/datasets/populationestimatesanalysistool)) or have a uterus (for whatever reason) aren't women That being said, I agree those terms are ugly though (I've heard trans men and non-binary people who aren't too stoked about them either), they reduce people down to their anatomy which I'm honestly not too happy with. Definitely shouldn't be used outside of very specific medical circumstances >I feel as though biological women are going to be pushed out of favor for being “cis” and I’ll get called “far-right” or “transphobic” for preferring to be called a WOMAN. You are very much a woman, the term 'cis' doesn't change that. It's just a word to distinguish between cis and trans women. Trans and cis are opposite descriptors. It's the same as saying tall and short women to differentiate between tall and short women >I’m even fine with Biological woman if we have to make that distinction for whatever reason. Biological women has the problem that it really muddies the water on who is a "true woman". For instance, how do you define a biological women? Are women with [XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis) still biological women? Are men born with [persistent Müllerian duct syndrome (born with a uterus and Fallopian tubes)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_M%C3%BCllerian_duct_syndrome) biological women? [Like this guy](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952983/amp/Pictured-time-British-businessman-set-hysterectomy-discovering-WOMB-normal-male-organs.html) Also, I personally feel that it's icky to reduce people down to their biology just for the sake of differentiation. We are more than that. >Please don’t call women “birth-givers” or some weird other name to be more inclusive to transwomen. I would never call you birth-giver, it sounds really horrible and dehumanizing and IMHO should only be used in very specific medical circumstances. You are a woman! >But don’t erase biological women too. We're not trying to erase anyone, don't believe the misinformation and slander from those who actively try to take away our rights >Transgender Women are Women. >We can all be women together Hell yeah ! Stay awesome! Don't listen to this kind of misinformation! You are a woman and no one is trying to take that away from you! ❤️


wolfpack_charlie

"I have no issues with trans women. Anyway, here's some TERF talking points and strawman arguments."


Geek_Queen2016

How am I Trans Exculsionary when all O said was that I don’t want to be personally referred to as a birth giver? Actually READ before you make assumptions about people. Thanks.


Wismuth_Salix

“The transes are erasing womanhood with their newspeak about uterus-havers” is a pretty standard TERF talking point. Not saying you are one - just explaining why the people who get this junk thrown at them regularly might be mistaking you for one. Good faith questioners are a lot less common than concern trolls, sadly.


Geek_Queen2016

Well that’s not a good thing. I was unaware that was one of their talking points, I’ve never been a fan of TERFS


[deleted]

Just a friendly remind that it was cis people who made those terms up without being asked to pander and patronize people who just want to live their lives.


wolfpack_charlie

Why do you think including trans women somehow excludes cis women such as yourself? Where are you seeing people referring to cis women as "birth givers" and "period havers"? I've only seen these terms being complained about on the internet, never in the real world. Who is telling you that it's not okay for you to call yourself a woman?


Wismuth_Salix

That language is not designed to include trans women - it’s designed to include trans men and AFAB non-binary people who are also in need of those types of products and services but are not women.


bluefishegg

To be honest, to me the only really useful time for those kinds of terms is when talking about large scale medical generalizations (like for studies). Products can have completely neutral names without ever describing gender and person to person medical appointments can use a person's pronouns and accept that not everyone who menstruate are women


[deleted]

Trans people did not ask for those terms. Most trans men would prefer it very strongly if you didn't mention the fact that they have female anatomy.


bluefishegg

>Trans people did not ask for those terms Yeah we most definitely didn't. >Most trans men would prefer it very strongly if you didn't mention the fact that they have female anatomy. Yeah, I've heard both trans men and NBs be unhappy with terminology like this


No_Entrance_4122

I'm okay with "people with periods" or "people with a uterus" but "uterus person" grosses me out because I am way more than just one organ that I plan to get rid of. No one tries to call amab trans people "penis people" because it would (rightfully) cause them dysphoria, but somehow it's okay to refer to afabs as "period people"


bluefishegg

Thanks for the input, glad to hear a FtM pov to not just having the pov of us women. >No one tries to call amab trans people "penis people" because it would (rightfully) cause them dysphoria, but somehow it's okay to refer to afabs as "period people" Yeah, I've been thinking about that exact thing too. I'd definitely not like terms like "penis people", "prostate person" or something similar. I think the simplest reason for the focus though is that this rhetoric is created specifically to rile up TERFs and other right wingers who think of AFABs as "small precious helpless things" and trans women as "scary predatory monsters" (hence why they're saying this language is because of us)


No_Entrance_4122

Well, I definitely don't think the language is from my trans sisters. My best guess is it came from cis allies who think the best way to be an ally is to talk over trans people


bluefishegg

Yeah, definitely didn't come from trans women


Exhausted-gay

I’m pretty sure period haver or I’ve seen “people who get periods” is just because some trans men and non-binary people get periods so when giving advice on things like that people especially those within the community sometimes don’t want to say “Woman” because it’s not only woman who get periods. Though AFAB (pronounced a-fab) is probably a better word to use in that situation since it just means “assigned female at birth” if we’re talking about the biological issues, such as periods, AFAB people have.


yagirlchloeb

Uhhhhh those terms have nothing to do with us you do know trans men are a thing?


ohay_nicole

I was under the impression terms such as "people who have periods", etc. were to be inclusive to assigned female at birth people, such as trans men. Trans women would not be included in such terms.


wolfpack_charlie

Yup, literally none of her complaints have to do with trans women. It's all TERF shit anyway


Geek_Queen2016

If discussing medical issues that’s a very important distinction to make, and should absolutely be made inclusive so each person gets the best medical care to their specific needs. But I have seen articles using this very wording to be inclusive to trans/non-binary people. Articles that call women that just seem to be very exclusionary. I don’t see the need for the difference because binary trans people become the other gender because they feel it suits them better than what was assigned to them at birth. The way I see it, m to f transgendered people are just women who had to take a biological detour of sorts. If that makes sense… and non-binary people don’t feel comfortable in either gender but may feel comfortable elsewhere. (In between or completely out of the spectrum I guess) So why not (medical purposes aside) just say women, men and non-binary people?


bluefishegg

I totally agree, just saying women is perfect for every instance where the distinction between trans and cis women isn't specifically necessary. For the few times where the distinction is necessary, terms like trans and cis are perfect. They're opposite descriptors meaning "on this side" (cis) and "on the other side" (trans). They're the same as using the terms tall and short to distinguish between tall and short women


VedDdlAXE

Well yes those names are dumb but most Trans Women I know and have met would call you a cis woman.


Geek_Queen2016

I have no issue with that, it’s correct. I don’t want to be someone’s birth-Abled buddy. You see?


VedDdlAXE

I see that and agree yes. All I'm saying is most people I know of wouldn't say that


SouthernYoghurt9

"Woman" is a gender, so no trans men aren't "biological women" and trans women aren't "biological men". "Female" is probably the word you are looking for


Geek_Queen2016

I never said they were biological women. However, biological woman is eons better than “birth-giver.” I’m more than my bodily functions. That’s like calling you “Ejaculating-person” So why can’t you call a Transwoman a woman? Or a transman a man?


No_Entrance_4122

outside of pride month or interactions with trans people, I very much prefer to drop the trans label.


SomeLakitu

>So why can’t you call a Transwoman a woman? Or a transman a man? You can. Trans woman/men is just a more precise term.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Brawl-on

Not only is it not a choice, but this would apply to straight people as well. And I bet you wouldn’t like that very much.


wolfpack_charlie

Bro did you not go through puberty or something??


VedDdlAXE

Sexuality is not a choice. And I am 99% sure you knew your sexuality before 25. Most do. Children around 13-ish do in fact have sexual thoughts. And even under that age on occasion. But sexuality isn't just about sex so children and, well, anyone under 25 can definitely know their sexuality. Key-Word "know". Not "decide"...


Someonedm

You don’t decide your sexuality, though


ohay_nicole

Do you support the same for people being vaccinated?


StarChild413

Then why shouldn't they wait that long (while being raised up to that point without one and encouraged to explore every option) to choose everything from future career path to political ideology