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[OPINION] [SPOILERS] The problem with the food & combat changes...

[OPINION] [SPOILERS] The problem with the food & combat changes...

Super_Jay

I haven't gotten to play yet but I'm a but concerned about the mechanical changes to stamina especially. I don't really want to have to juggle a bunch of different foods with an already limited inventory given that a third of the space in my pack is already taken up by the armor and ammo I'm using. Plus it sounds like stamina depletes faster and is consumed by more actions? I can't help but wonder if they're going to re-tune some of these changes since it sounds pretty aggressive and unnecessarily punishing so far.


CharlestonKSP

Yeah, I play with my wife and she is NOT someone who enjoys these types of games. If they've turned the game into some weird uber hardcore stamina min max simulator I'm out. I love myself a hardcore survival but not with stupid mechanics. Inventory is already way too small to want to deal with more than you already have to carry (an entire hotbar plus 9 extra slots worth of equipment including food, other tools, armor, etc etc.)


9gxa05s8fa8sh

yeah that's what it is right now. it's like a difficulty level upgrade. I think they'll change it, because it plays like a different game now


[deleted]

If it's as bad as I'm hearing. It's not going to matter if they fix it. It will be too late more than likely.


Celystior

Single patch isn't perfect within 12 hours of launch. Dead game.


[deleted]

It's killed better games.


ImSuperCriticalOfYou

Valheim is dead? Shit. Well, uninstalling.


Kaz-Mazak

This single patch took almost an entire year. To add what? 10 housing items? A bad balance patch? Naming your Lox's? Devs got their millions and it's obvious from their "thanks for the money suckers" irl house photos they've posted that they don't give a shit anymore. edit: did none of you white-knights listen to the fireside chat when they laughed about how much they made? About how "Suck it up, the game is what we want now, not you" When they told us "3-4 major updates in 2021? https://www.inverse.com/gaming/valheim-update-schedule-2021-hearth-home-cult-wolf-ships-sea-mistlands


[deleted]

Agreed


SartosanFemboi

If thats what you got out of it, you obviously didnt read the patch notes.


VemundManheim

Mods saves the day again.


cupasoups

While true, we shouldn't have to rely on mods for the game to be playable. This is a mess.


VemundManheim

Yup. This is bad.


[deleted]

Doesn't sound like a good thing for people who play solo.


Dernhelm_of_Edoras

It really isn't. I mostly play solo, mix of archery and round-shield/axe to keep myself alive, and I was feeling pretty good. Always tense enough in the next biome up that my heart was pumping, but with care and prep survivable. Now, with such a tiny health pool and both shields and bows nerfed I feel my adventuring days are over :-(


MayaOmkara

I [did a test on fueling camp without being rested](https://www.reddit.com/r/valheim/comments/pposke/i_did_a_solo_test_attack_on_fueling_camp_on_new/hd5emcv/?context=3), it's still manageable in solo.


Tr0ndern

I don't get this, it was allready easy going solo before the patch, like, very easy.


levicherub

I play solo and this is trash


BrigAdmJaySantosCAP

The way people were talking early on today I thought I was the only one disappointed in it. The game was fun and still a challenge, now I just walk around waiting for my stamina to recharge so I can attack while trying to avoid being attacked. Boring and not fun ...


cupasoups

They absolutely murdered solo players.


Chachajenkins

Light a pyre for us without friends.


kantokiwi

You must light your own pyre


Tr0ndern

They didn't, calm down.


AntonineWall

Yeah it sucks


888Kraken888

This lol....


ChallyII

I can't get more than 3 bow shots off with a bow before I run out of stamina, and parry doesn't seem to do anything against a troll now. Could be the end of solo play.


FROTHY-JIZZ

> parry doesn't seem to do anything against a troll now That's interesting, I was able to parry the first troll I saw no problem


Celystior

Same. No issues with troll parry. ​ Also, high tier bows are way higher stamina drain now. If you're just exploring, a lesser bow is probably the current solution for deer/boar/skeets. Long term? Hard to say.


Demon997

That is really fucking annoying. I guess I should just toss Draugr Fang and grab a firewood bow. I’m overall excited about the new stuff, but some of these choices are nuts. With any luck they’ll tweak things soon.


GameOnPantsGone

If the current solution is to downgrade equipment when exploring lower tier areas, then it just adds a whole new level of inventory/item management to the game which I'm guessing a majority of players don't want to deal with. =/


magvadis

Probably more just solo play requires a different playstyle instead of just making the game so easy that you don't even need a team. You'll maybe just have to play smarter.


ChallyII

I'm playing plenty smart. Issue will be when Troll events level my village. If a single troll takes 20 minutes of kitting doing solo play I'll find other games.


Dawesk93

With a level 40 bow skill, a crude bow, and flint head arrows, it still only took a couple minutes to kill a troll…


magvadis

You can certainly prepare your village to make trolls more manageable before unlocking the troll event.


PCMasterCucks

You shouldn't have to resort to cheese to play the game. "Make a moat, raise ground then make a giant stone wall after that and then just shoot arrows" **is super boring**.


ExCalvinist

I absolutely hate the changes to stamina and blocking. I can't imagine someone playing the previous version and thinking the problem was that the stamina system was too generous. There shouldn't even be a stat check involved in parrying an enemy attack; the decision to make that stat check harder is insane. If you want to make the game more difficult, give the enemies better attacks, or a greater variety of attacks. Valheim desperately wants to be a game of skill, but every design decision the devs makes it more and more about gear.


cupasoups

And 300% more grindy


Picard2331

Reminds me of the odd decision to add the Adaptibility stat to Dark Souls 2 that changes your i-frames while dodging.


NightHawk521

See, but that's even fine. It's punishing by once you invest a few points into it it's normal. And frees up points if you want to play sword and board. What I don't understand is why the stamina recharges so slowly. In DS if you're not actively taking an action your stamina recharges in like 2-3 seconds. You can increase max stamina allowing you to get more attacks, but the base recharge is quick. Here it's like 5 minutes of waiting for the fucking thing to fill up.


ilski

I had my doubts about it from beginning. I;m yet to play and see for myself.


888Kraken888

The devs also came across as arrogant in the fireside chat..... They'll fix this, but a bit of humility is good every now and again.


AtheistJezuz

How so? I'm genuinely curious.


Shwalz

Somebody posted a summary earlier and it was the first time I read about the fireside discussion. Apparently they’re not trying to cater to any one play style in particular and when they finish updates they’re essentially leaving the game as is and moving onto new projects. I don’t have the post to link, but it definitely did come off as, “well if you don’t like it don’t play it”.


maddoxprops

That is a good way to make a chunk of people never play your other stuff.


Skimbla

They kept talking about how they’re not making this game for everybody, and that they were going to anger some people.


Seraph___

I don’t agree with their changes but I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. Some devs want to make the game they want to play. And it was clear from the start they never had any intentions of this blowing up like it did. We would end up with many more interesting games if developers went in without this mindset that every game needs to have mass appeal. We’ve already lost a few genres because of it. Regardless of what happens, the devs should make the game they wanna play. That’s what led them to this point.


Skimbla

Yeah, I wasn’t saying it’s a bad thing. I was just guessing why that person said they came off as arrogant.


L3374ax0r

In their 30 min fireside chat it started off with lots of "we are excited for these updates and changes and reworks" and it was very positive. Towards the end of the chat the tone shifted and it went very "this game isnt for everyone, we dont mind alienating our player base, this game will have an ending so dont keep playing it." It was an uncomfortable tone switch that came off as very arrogant and very talking down to the viewer. I love this game, but it was a little weird to hear. After playing today and being slightly frustrated with the some of the core mechanic changes, thinking back to that part leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


MaternalLeave

Thanks for explaining it. I was wondering about the fireside chat and you broke it down. That’s concerning how they ended the interview, almost like the PR side of them vanished and what they really thought started to come out. Is it true they were bragging about their new wealth? A few guys said they did that.


AdministrativeFall44

I guess that's it for my solo play. This is a change no one asked for, a problem that didn't need to be fixed.


maddoxprops

While these changes may make sense in Multiplayer since you can have someone focus on tanking, it kinda blows for us solo players since we can't do both roles as easily anymore.


Bandit_Raider

Parry is dependent on health too? That is awful I wasn't aware of that.


magvadis

Agree with this 100% Parry being attached to max health is a deeply stupid move...it makes it entirely redundant to blocking . I could understand parrying being tied to stamina...but max health doesn't even make any sense intuitively. Blocking at least requires you to take the brunt of the hit whereas a parry is just manipulation. I will say, rogue is still viable using the dodge mechanic. Parry builds before were overly easy before either way.


SzotyMAG

Thank god I'm not the only one. Fighting Moder was disastrous...


RazomOmega

Posted this in the sticky, but thought maybe this discussion could use its own post. What do you guys think?


ApesAmongUs

Really, parry already benefits from having high stamina, since you are more able to block and then counter attack. I'd just want to remove parry from the equation entirely and give it a solid base. Simply switching the stat just changes the way you need to min-max instead of allowing a balanced playstyle. I much prefer a world where ignoring anything is bad, but you can focus in any direction to one in which the only viable choices are hyper specialization.


RazomOmega

So you'd argue the current system allows for a balanced combat playstyle?


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RazomOmega

Troll set gives you a nice 33 armour while maintaining full mobility, I'd call that light armour. I liked the possibility of doing a bit more specialized types of combat that came with it


ApesAmongUs

The difference between the high and low stats for most foods is 20-30, so all playstyles are effectively balanced. I get the need for making health more important or making the option to favor one over the other matter more, but truthfully, don't really see the need for a "health only" playstyle.


Jollidillo

If you took the parry aspect away from the tank roll, then you effectively make the tank a very boring linear class to play, just hold block and stand still? What else is there for a tank to do in this scenario? The tank should have challenging gameplay as much as the rogue character class so timing the blocks for a perfect parry is the play style I would want them to have


mruglyoe

I don't mind the new food, but the new mechanics will just make it really difficult for mediocre players like myself. We may never make it past mid game without help now.


Base_BEAST

I see even this sub is having trouble coming to terms with IG's vision for the game, which by now, it should be clear, is to maximize grinding and micromanagement. I think the changes suggested by the OP are great.


akpak

When solo, it seems like now ONLY option 1 is even viable at all.


Kaarl_Smash

R- from me, my friend. I don't think that it's possible for you to make an educated comment on the food and combat after just an hour of dicking around with it. Pull a new character and new world, collect your first wolf pelt, then lets talk about the combat and food. I'm withholding judgement until I'm past Bonemass. I don't think there's any way for me to understand what they did until I have the hours in. Our brains and muscle memories are based on hundreds of hours of the previous meta. You don't unlearn that and learn a whole new fucking combat system in an hour.


FeverFocus

I haven't played it yet, but this is the impression I'm getting from how people are reacting. I'm really hoping it's not that bad and we just need to relearn it and figure out the new meta


AssocOfFreePeople

It’s bad Kaarl, real bad. It’s tedium masquerading as more complex gameplay. It will help kill this title.


IYIENACE

> Our brains and muscle memories are based on hundreds of hours of the previous meta. You don't unlearn that and learn a whole new fucking combat system in an hour. I'm new-ish to the game, I don't have hundreds of hours in it. I felt a bit of addiction to it and felt my character getting stronger & more prepared each time for the next stage. It's far more difficult now and being without health or stamina either/or is extremely annoying. So much so that I came here for the first time to see if I'm the only one put off by the food changes. The entire time I was playing today I kept thinking of another voxel game I loved, simple and addictive that became more and more punishing to the point it wasn't fun at all. (7daystodie) and I stopped playing completely despite continued updates


Jungleman6

I played a fair amount of 7. What killed it for me was that when I tried to set up turrets and spotlights, half of them wouldn’t activate and the others did but didn’t shoot despite having plenty of ammo. I built a base, dug a huge trench around it, built a wall around the top of my trench and had turrets and spotlights all over the wall. Everything was carefully linked when I did the powerlines. The spotlights worked properly, but the turrets were on a seperate circuit and refused to power up once I had more than two or three linked in. Also I got sick of stuff blowing up when I tried to harvest a pallet of cement or chop open a door to get the bag of goodies in the boat cabin.


BilderbergerMeister

I am also a 7DTD refugee and I feel the same way. The developers for 7DTD never learned and I think Iron Gate is following that same path. I don’t have any faith Valheim will get better.


magvadis

Agreed. I think people are just revolting against the game being different...and harder...but they don't really want to recognize the game was deeply and comedically easy in the food and combat departments. The only hard thing about the game prior was the time requirement and that was already obliterated around when you get pocket portals and just exploiting world saves.


StraightfaceRAPE

I’d argue that the game being easy is one of the reasons it’s popular with some people though. There are many challenging “hardcore” survival games but this one has a much lower barrier to entry and accomodates all types of casual players. You can play it with your kids for example.


AssocOfFreePeople

There’s a difference between a more challenging game and a more tedious one, the devs need to learn the difference.


Manbearpjjg

Agreed. Ive put hundreds of hours into vanilla. Mostly building and dying from fall damage. But we are exactly less than a whole fucking day into the H&H. Probably worth some more hours to figure things out.


AssocOfFreePeople

It’s not good. Period.


darknessinducedlove

I hate humanity


samsab

I'm seeing a lot of overreacting here from the first day of the update. Not really surprising, this is the Gaming Community™ we're talking about here


yeotajmu

I think it's pretty telling that this sub full of simps and white knights for the devs where any negative or critical comment was destroyed has now down a complete 180


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kolao3fyllo

2 shots with a bow...i manage to shoot 2 shots with a bow, thats how bad the stamina is in the game.


AssocOfFreePeople

It’s terrible and goofy.


RazomOmega

>Parry stamina builds were completely OP I wasn't aware of this lol, in what way was it OP?


hi_marx

The rogue is supposed to roll dodge, not parry. Problem solved


magvadis

Yeah not sure why parry was associate with his idea of a rogue when in all games I've ever played they are associated with Evasion.


Frydendahl

Rogue builds in Dark Souls are heavily focused on parrying, as their weapons get damage boosts on the counter attack.


Optimal_Evening7687

They totaly screwed it. I have no stamin, combine 2 stamina foods and still aim 3 times with bow and im done. Even before was staming most annoying shit and now? Unplayable and not fun. Why spend so much time just by farming food and mix tons of ingredients. For me 1/10 update rating, even Raid shadow legends didnt messed up that hard lile this.


coltzord

idk if you started over or not but bow always sucked early game cause of the stamina cost so judging by what youre saying its the same


RazomOmega

No matter how hard one endeavors to set up for a productive conversation, eh


sh1ndlers_fist

I parried a one star tree troll with cooked deer meat, yellow shroom, and blueberry health/stamina and parried it no problem. You don’t have nearly as much total stats now, but it doesn’t seem to be a problem even with that low amount of health I had. I see where you’re coming from with the different play styles maybe not being as viable but I play with a buckler/knife combo and have yet to have an issue. Blocking or parrying things.


lolic_addict

I guess it's the opposite for me: I can't parry 1-star skeletons in crypts without taking damage (around 6-9 damage still gets spilled over) even with deer meat, boar meat, neck tail. I played with 5 other people though, so player scaling is a large factor.


Myrkana

Isnt meat health food? It has the red fork, so that's intended?


GrenMeera

Parry is supposed to be based upon health though, so health food should make parrying easier.


lolic_addict

Yeah, it seems blocking/parrying in general with the round shield has been nerfed. Will try to make a wood tower shield the next time and see if it's better at blocking mobs when there's 6 of me and my friends ooga-booga-ing each other in crypts.


Mr_Mori

Knife crew rise up!


Trex-razer

These difficulty updates are the dumbest things to ever exist the game was already hard.


nitewalks

You can dodge roll


surfnsets

So how do we not patch this update?


Trex-razer

Or maybe just don’t make your fucking block power depend on anything besides the shield stats


Aggressio

The thing is that the "archer" or glass cannon approach doesn't seem really viable. It has all the risks to little rewards. Bow eats all your stamina no matter the food and then you end up in melee with no health points or stamina. So better just health up since you can't keep the distance to enemies with stamina. That way you can survive few hits whole trying to walk around enemies while regaining stamina to hit them every now and then. For single shot sniping the health food work just as fine, so why bother with stamina since its going to run out anyway and leave you helpless


mombawamba

I think OP has an awesome wholistic point in this post,but I just want to offer some positivity for the new food system with all of this in mind. The first thing I wanna say is food diversity or options and how that influences playstyle is the main problem outline here. This is very valid, but even if the 'rogue' playstyle is not as accessible, we still have 2 options that we didn't have before. Sure we could have more stamina heavy foods and more health heavy ones to influence our playstyle, but let's be honest all of us went for a balance anyway. Although this wasn't the desired outcome, I do think that the new food diversity does at least allow us a second stamina heavy build path that wasn't present further. However, I think OP has an awesome point and something should change further to open up our playstyles even firther.