Next balancing update should focus on Metals
By - FellaVentura
Honestly I totally agree, I pretty much burned myself out Crypt-diving for Iron.
They definitely need to make it a bit easier to farm, not to make the game easier in general, but it just seems too out of line with the later materials (like black metal as you mentioned) needing far less time and effort invested.
I spent around 50 hours mining for my group. At first, I hated it, but it slowly became something I greatly enjoyed, especially once I had fully upgraded iron gear, weapons, and good food.
We had a group of 5-7 depending on the day, so lots of iron was always in demand. When we first hit the iron phase, nearly everyone was always out at the swamp collecting iron. After Bonemass, basically everyone went on to start exploring the mountains. Not sure why, but I had no interest in going to the mountain at the time.
I think a big part of it had to do with how big our first swamp was. Just off our initial searching, we mapped 20+ crypts. So at first I made it my goal to empty all of those crypts. Dedicated all of my time purely to clearing crypts. After some time, managed to clear all of them, but noticed the swamp still extended in all directions. Spent an hour or two just mapping out the entire swamp, and ended up finding 70+ crypts (including the original 20+).
Every time I'd get on, I'd just talk to my friends while I continued to solo grind iron, not knowing that we'd even need it later. I just knew structures could use it, so figured it'd have some use.
Decided to stop once I had two large chests full of excess iron. I'd have to imagine in total I mined some 3-4 large chest fulls at least, but hard to tell knowing my friends would always drop by and take some for whatever weapons/armors/builds they were working on.
Never had to mine every since then. Even after getting all armors and tools possible to max level, using iron beams in a decent number of builds, and crafting tons of large chests, I still have nearly half a large chest full of iron.
Still no idea why I did all of that, and how I didn't get burned out. I guess I had just achieved a perfect zen state of trying to clear all crypts, and optimizing my methods for gathering, loading the boat, and shipping it back home.
Sounds like you enjoy the logistic aspect of iron farm. I also do, it’s really fun to design a plan and execute it to perfection. And the sailing is honestly fun, chill, and relaxing after a long period of crypt diving
yeah I definitely liked the sailing part of doing iron runs. My biggest gripe is the dreary and wet swamps themselves. Just a depressing biome. Couldn't the rain stop once in awhile?
I feel like they could get the best of both worlds if the swamps stopped raining after you beat Bonemass. Then it's still difficult your first time through dealing with the constant rain, but later you could maybe even build a nice base there.
I like the swamp biome tho. Constant rain is a plus in my book, just not the debuff
They could really do another tier of "leather" armor here, like getting leech hides to make "waterproof" Leechskin Armor that makes you immune to being wet.
id rather make it use serpent scales, but i agree in principle. probably a cloak that negates becoming wet would be enough for me.
Serpent scales do need more uses
Hanging out and talking with friends helps reduce the feeling of something being tedious, even if they are in a different biome.
They just need to make it more fun to farm, not easier.
The ashlands makes sense for minable iron. Red land suggests iron minerals. It'd be a good late-game reward once the biome becomes more dangerous. Perhaps minable with an eventual black metal pickaxe.
There should be both iron and black metal in the plains. I don’t really care how you are meant to come by it but relegating iron to the swamps alone is just annoying bc of all the crypting you have to do
i would say some iron nodes should be in the mountains. mountains are where people often find metal ore in real life anyways, and it would be a step further in difficulty than the swamp. but at least provide a consistent source of iron.
maybe only at the highest elevations to make it harder to acquire early
We already know Ashland’s will have flametal though
Yeah I don't have any issues getting iron. Maybe I'm just lucky but I average over 100 ore per tomb and they're not hard to find. Even still, the sheer amount you need is insane.
I don't mind going and getting it, but the problem is that it's not really fun going into these places to kill two enemies and burn out 3 pickaxes tink tink tinking away at the mud to get the ore.
I think it's both fun and easier if you move to the swamps for the duration.
Almost everyone's complaints seem to stem from the fact that they go to the swamp and have to lug it all back to some outdated base they left in the meadows or black forest.
Not only is that a lot of travel, it means that for most of their time in the swamps they're fighting and mining without the iron upgrades that make it a lot easier and faster. If your smelting and forging is right there in the swamp, you get an upgrade with every single trip to a sunken crypt. Max out your Pickaxe first and just keep the smelters running.
I've played this game through a lot now, and the swamp phase is honestly so fast and productive if you commit to it, clear vegetation and level everything out with the hoe to make paths everywhere, plant tons of turnips and set up a central base (ideally within range of one or two surtling spawns) and do more than just grind it out; build something cool.
I just don't like too much of the spooky
I find a sliver of black forest near the swamp I'm heading to and build a treehouse. I set if up with smelting and forging systems and process the area before moving on.
I tried this and have to respectfully disagree. The perma-rain status of the swamp makes establishing anything there long term really obnoxious. I can't imagine doing any sort of farming with a permanent 50% stamina debuff would be enjoyable.
I do agree that people tend to rely on a single mega-base too much instead of making outposts, but I don't see that as translating into a recommendation of a swamp base -- other than for the fun of doing it. A base *near* a swamp, however ...
It's less that people "rely" on a single megabase and more that people *want* one.
I can knock out a quick and easy functional base in a few minutes but that's not really fun. I want my massive fortress to call home.
Also having one mega base just works better bc moving smelters and their respective upgrades is time consuming too and I’d rather just do the long hauls tbh
Yeah, I like having a reason to sail instead of just using portals.
Sailing is nice but it takes forever.
Portals are welcome replacement for me.
Also the comfort mechanics as well as not being able to portal the materials required for crafting benches and bench upgrades means the game is kind of encouraging you to have a big main base too. Too much of a grind to simply make everything again elsewhere.
I also do the base near a swamp instead of a base in the swamp. The problem with the "base in the swamp" method is that unless you find a swamp with tons of crypts, then you will need to move your base from swamp to swamp as the crypts run dry.
I usually spend time scouting out 3-5 swamps and then build a base in a meadow/forest that is somewhat central to all of them.
So your telling me I should farm more of everything to make all the work bench and cauldron upgrades to make outposts?
No. No we don’t do that here.
You could, in theory, break it and take it with you to the new base. But I still personally like a big main base myself. I usually make a small outpost to store the ore at before making a large trip home
I have 2. One at main hub and the 2nd is a travel station I carry in resources on my long ship.
Eh, swamp bases with portals to your main base are great if positioned correctly. I built one using an old stone tower that I basically made into the fortified spiral stairs up into my treehouse, and nothing broke through, not that I was worried since I was in a base supported by unbreakable trees.
Because it was relative close to a couple of fire geysers, I could hang out or just pop in through the portal frequently and listen to their dying screams a bit before gathering heaps of coal to fill my furnaces. I definitely plan to repeat it this go-round!
You just don’t hang out outside, of course.
A strangely specific concern, I feel.
I do plant turnips in the swamp when I move there, but it doesn't take that many to sustain you through that part of the progression, and you can't farm anything truly useful/irreplaceable until Plains anyway.
Everything you need to do in Swamp other than travel is indoors, so the weather isn't really a factor.
They don't mean agriculture farming, I would imagine.
That makes it even weirder a concern then. The things you need to kill in the swamp are still always in the swamp, whether you have a base there or not.
You can't farm leeches or wraiths somewhere else sunnier.
I agree. I guess it'd be annoying to have to always have some amount of rain on your way to and from your base whenever you have to trek to a different biome for materials, but that seems pretty nominal to me.
Also helps if you happen to find like a hidden glade of meadows or Black Forest to build in that’s close by. i did the same thing when me and 2 other mates were in an endless grind to leave the Bronze Age.
I am a megabaser, there is always that place to call home. But when the time came to find a swamp for progression, I setup a foward outpost, its much easier and safer to plan expeditions from one, specially early game, and at that point you can portal in with any materials you need for construction and improvements. My first forge and its upgrades are still there. But when the chest was full enough, I took the iron back home.
That strategy was adapted, whenever I needed to go to a new biome or boss altar I took resources to build a basic hut with most crafting upgrades.
Ya I don't do a base in the swamp, but I definitely rely on transient bases until I find a spot that's within walking distance of plains, mountains, and swamp, then set up my permanent base there. Anything you could build before that doesn't need a big fancy base or a significant amount of non portalable metals.
In the same way you get copper chunks out of a primarily stone pile in the black forest, you should get silver chunks out of a primarily iron vein in the mountains.
It also depends heavily on whether you play solo or with a group. I’m my experience if you know what you’re doing it’s way easier bc you only have yourself to fend for.
But when me and my mates found ourselves going back into the swamp constantly even when we were close to fighting Moder we kind of knew how busted iron grinding was. We had to find 3x the amount of iron than usual + all of the building recipes late game that suck up all the excess iron that you smelt.
Maybe just adding iron to all biomes and detectable with the wishbone might help. You can only do it late in the game, and you don’t have to do the dreaded crypt runs.
a heads up on this the wishbone does find random mudpiles in the biome of the swamp outside of the crypts, i used this before H&H update so hoping it is still in this update.
Yeah, I meant this as an extension to that - make These hidden mudpiles spawn elsewhere. Maybe not as mud, as that is swamp themed, but… well.
Ahh I get you apologies ✌️
I burned myself out hard on my very first playthrough with it. But then I realized it's easy to just skip Iron armor usually, always skip bronze. I go Troll -> Padded. Maybe Iron for helm. Iron is needed for the pickaxe/axe for sure. Always use bow for everything. Get silver as soon as you get an iron pickaxe. Usually have to fight through mountains with campfires though. Not really that difficult though. Dig in straight lines until you find a vein, then build an enclosure over top of it. Always stay rested. Shoot wolves, avoid rockbois, but if needed you can shoot them down too except it takes a little while.
Without the speed penalty from heavy armor you can do a heck of a lot more faster. Including dancing around enemies. Plus carrying less weight with you.
If you used your bow enough, by the time you hit the mountains your draw speed is nearly instant. Then it's just getting used to smashing headshots every time.
The reason the new patch is hard now is because they made it next to impossible to go troll to padded. In fact they made it that way because people were skipping tiers. Now we have to go the full tier path, upgrades and all before moving to the next biome. I also think this is why they made the food changes. To many people were using starting gear till the end because it was to good.
I don't know, some of the friends I play with are rocking troll in the plains. They do have two people in iron and silver to tank, and better weapons, but they seem to manage.
yeah they have help. Troll armor used to be enough to survive in plains easy peezy. Now though with the food changes. its not. Were getting hit now.
I'm currently in the swamp in my playthrough, just rocking troll armor (lv.3 everything but the cape, which is un-upgraded), bronze buckler, and a bronze mace. Things can get hairy but by no means is it untenable. I'd imagine having the movement penalty from metal armor and/or a tower shield would get me put in dire straits much more often.
Wait, when did they patch it like that?
Home and hearth changed the way everything is working. More mobs people are noticing. The stamina and health foods are different. Troll gear is good for black forest, bronze is better but from what I hear its not NEARLY enough to last long in swamp
I could recommend using troll gear in the swamp just for a bit of fast movement
A true chad. Bronze weapons + troll armour is the way to go in the swamps
For me, the big issue is that iron is the least fun metal to farm. I enjoy finding a big node of copper or silver and mining it out with friends. Hunting down crypts and mining scrap piles for small amounts of iron is more tedious. Especially when you clear out a crypt without getting even close to a stack of iron. Just feels bad.
+ the enemies inside the swamp crypts are really annoying to deal with, idk but I hate getting poisoned even when I have antidotes on me
+ in the swamps you never know morning/day/evening. Night comes accidentally. In late game I prefer plains, not swamps area.
Yeah when my buddy is in the plains and has defeated 4 bosses... But still tells me. I hate the swamps and then ends up dying while I am in just copper...
Poison is harsh
Poison resistance potions turn poison into a minor annoyance.
Yeah I am aware. But first time players are not. My buddy was not wanting to ruin everything for me so he kind of just helped collect stuff until I got more understanding.
And the repetitive nature of the crypts kills it for me, I can see easy ways to make the crypts 100% more enjoyable simply by changing the layout of the dungeon generator, doorways not as blocked by scrap piles with more scrap piles in rooms. better maneuverability for dreugr and blobs, could add ghosts, skeletons and wraiths occasionally too. its mostly just same same.
More iron scraps in chests vs finding the majority in scrap piles as well.
Bigger rooms too. I used to absolutely love it and get shivers when playing Skyrim and a cave system would open up into a massive underground crypt of some kind.
I dont know what yall are complaining about, perhaps it's your seed? Check out mine: FluffNut north west from the start and past the landmass that surrounds it there are two crypts that we've found so far + a trader. We completely filled the knaves storage and still didnt clear the second crypt and I had like 18 in my inventory and my husband had 20 in his by the time we headed home
It sounds like you are very early on the "iron age"
Later on for some armor and weapon upgrades you will be using over 15 ingots per upgrade. A full karve will barelly cover a fully upgraded set for a person, if at all. Couple that with building craftstation upgrades.
Now consider servers of 10> people, each with their own armor, weapon and crafting and base building needs. The server I was on was advising newcomers to just world hop, because most swamps were already drained and finding an untouched one would be hard.
I do agree that the demand for iron is *incredibly* steep, moreso when compared to the demand for other ore. But at risk of diverting the conversation somewhat, I think the larger issue is how *boring* iron mining is.
During my first playthrough with friends, absolutely everything was exciting -- except for iron mining. It was novel at first, sure, due to the new zone and wondering what we'd find next inside the sunken crypts. But that novelty wore off very, very quickly. The Plains reinvigorated us with the way black metal was farmed: by killing mobs through combat instead of dinging a pickaxe against a rock for (ostensibly) hours at a time. It's simply more fun, even if fulings were an incredibly difficult fight.
The Plains constrast so heavily to the crypts in this regard. There's no dynamism in the crypts, because the rooms are all sealed up and you get to clear them and the mobs inside at the exact pace that you want to: the first few minutes when you enter a new crypt and you aren't sure what mobs have an immediate path to attack you are actually the most exciting moments. Once you clear those (at most) three rooms, you're done. You're now in full control of the pace of the fights. Nothing is going to spawn in and surprise you, and you can cheese all the enemies by opening up a sliver of space to shoot arrows through. There's no risk to make the reward feel earned.
Like, say what you want about the bronze age being a grind, but at least there's palpable excitement in the early game when a troll shows up suddenly and bonks you into the dirt.
I agree with what you're saying but if you haven't been iron mining since H&H dropped then I'm happy to say that it's a lot better now at least
How so? I’ve been mining iron in a brand new world since the update and haven’t noticed any changes.
You dig through the piles much faster now because the entire swing hits each bit of the pile. (After the initial swing)
You now hit multiple areas per swing, so you get through the piles a lot faster.
Iron mining has sped up considerably. I'd say 2.5x to 3x less hits with a pickaxe on scrap piles is a fair assumption. It feels so much better having to repair so less frequently.
Like I said to the other guy you hit multiple areas per swing, so you get through the scrap piles a lot faster. Like 2-3x faster than before if not more
The pierce makes mining a breeze but I guess people here don’t like any sort of grind.
Iron Ore wouldn't hurt either, just give us some veins in the mountains or even plains. (clearly visible, **needing an Iron Pickaxe**)
I really like the idea of iron ore veins being "too hard" to access until you craft an iron pickaxe. Maybe taking it a step further and also having them spawn in the mountains & Ashlands so that there's still an incentive to craft gear from the tier-appropriate swamps/crypts, but being readily accessible later in the game through simple exploration. It'd also give the mountains more purpose later in the game too as opposed to being forgotten after silver has been obtained.
Maybe not plain sight but even a burried iron vein in plains or mountains would be nice.
In the plains and you need to find it just like silver. I would have no issue with this.
Perhaps buried and needing the wishbone to find too, like the useless lumps in the swamp.
Or a black metal one If incorporated. That way it hard gates you until you have defeated Moder. But this or the trader selling iron at a x=y black metal to iron ratio sounds bomb since there is theoretically an unlimited supply of black metal you can super passively farm.
Iron is supposed to be gated behind having the swamp key from the elder, if it was just in plain view in the mountains it defeats the point of the swamp key
"needing and iron pickaxe [to be mined]"
I think the idea is you get the key to get into the crypt and get iron. And then with that iron you can then access the iron you might find outside.
So you use whatever pick you have inside the crypt for the scrap piles, but then you need an actual iron pick outside.
It's only semi gated though. You can randomly mine in swamps/check the hillside near them to find enough iron for a pickax.
Then search mountains with a sledge for silver. I did that, jumped from troll/bronze to silver.
Which is why you have the requirement of it using an iron pick axe and only have it found in the plains. No one is going to the plains with early game gear and the requirement of the iron pic makes it so you have to do some crypts to get your initial iron. No one is arguing against that being the way to get iron, its just not practical for late game.
This is thecway
Unless you need an iron pickaxe, like u/Akasha1885 clearly mentions in his comment. You still would have to get iron first from crypts.
I'm pretty sure they edited their comment after I pointed out the issue with their idea and didn't bother to note it so now I look like an asshole and get downvoted
They could have the elder drop both a key and maybe its arm. Use the shit like groot's arm and make it into the handle for the iron pickaxes. Would that work?
I totally agree with this. After farming about 10 crypts and making iron gear, me and my brother had 2 stacks of iron left, and we still haven't upgraded out stuff. And to think we will need more iron later in the game, It just sucks that we need to grind even more than we did.
I actually ended up just modding Haldor to Sell Wood, Stone, and Metals based on progression of the server. He also now buys all Cooked Food for gold, so players on the server can aquire Iron and other metals through passive farms like Agriculture, Animal Husbandry and just good ol Exploring without having to stop and swing a pickaxe after theyve progressed past the tier.
That's a great idea, and gives value to non-exploration based content (depending on progress in the world, like you said) for less combat oriented players.
That's really good!
Hey keep your head up. Once you return with end-game weapons and food you'll get through them so so fast.
The iron ore grind made me stop playing valheim, not gonna lie. I just hate the aesthetic of mining piles of mud in a dingy crypt, over and over again. It’s miserable and you need sooo much of it for everything. Now I started up a server again for H&H and I’m right back in the thick of the grind… yay
There really needs to be either more access to iron in other biomes. Or they need to increase iron yield per scrap pile
If they increase the yield they should also reduce the weight.
A very well written and researched post. Nice work. I completely agree, and I especially enjoyed this part:
>fuddling patrols could drop iron instead of black metal, making black metal only dropped by fuddling mobs spawned at fuddling villages = balance on late Tier metal availability.
>Alternative: a way to purify black metal into iron = If a ratio of 1Black metal=(x)Iron then it raises the overall value of late tier metal
>Alternative: Trading specific itens with Haldor for other metals, including Iron = Improvement on the relevance of the Trader and also on the relevance and value of other materials.
All three of these are great ideas, could be implemented without too much trouble, and would solve the problem nicely. You could throw one blackmetal bar back into a blast furnace to break it down into two iron bars or something like that. Iron dropping off of enemies would also be great!
>You could throw one blackmetal bar back into a blast furnace to break it down
There would be a slight issue when topping up the scrap from the furnace of picking up bars and placing them. Simplest solution would be dropping them in the stone furnace instead or making a new building.
The iron grind is what made me and my friend stop playing. We just wanted to build fun stuff but near impossible without a lot of iron.
Plains should have iron nodes, and golems should drop a *ton* of iron. Golems are pretty damn hard to fight and provide essentially no reward for defeating.
I’m talking like a full damn stack per golem. One star drops two stacks, two stars drop 3 or 4 stacks.
Additionally, the bosses are re-fightable. This is a massively underutilized mechanic. We can fight them again to get a mountable head, but they should provide a continuous reward to incentivize revisiting them cus they’re really freaking cool fights.
I think it’d be cool if the bosses scaled up. Some type of mechanic to summon 1 star Eikthyr where he drops a several stacks of stone and wood. 1 star Elder where he drops copper and tin. 1 star Bonemass drops iron. 1 star Moder drops silver. 1 star Yagluth drops black metal.
2 star is available as well for like a 5x drop multiplier cus it’d be like freaking impossible with that much damage and health on the later bosses.
I often wondered why we'd not find much metal items made from the metals of the biomes. I mean you occasionally get Iron Arrows in Sunken Crypts, but only Flint in Dark Forest? I'd expect to find Bronze Arrows there. Find the occasional mined ore in a tower or Crypt or as a rare drop off of Say 2 Star Skeles. In the Swamp Oozers drop Iron bits, Fulings Drop Dark Metal and it's in their camp chests. I'm just surprised the loot table is so bleak early on. Flint Arrows from the get go till Iron. I know they have been discussing tweaking the drops to be useful. Would also be nice if the Obliterator, while turning most things to coal, would turn metal items at least into scrap versions of whatever metal was used on that item, and that could in turn be reused.
Problem is you could use that to make items at the mine, then teleport back and obliterate them for ore. Even if you lose some ore, it might be worth it.
I mean, you can load up, log out, log into another world unload, rinse and repeat back at base... So is that even an issue? People gonna play how they wanna. I mean... You COULD do what you suggest to teleport ore, but even if it gave you a quarter of the material back, you still would have to expend double the resources to process it. Smelting, forging, teleporting, destroying, smelting, forging. I mean if you can make it at the mine, why even bother with the rest of that? I'm just thinking of times I had redundant old gear and would like to regain the metals for other uses.
There's the recycling mod. You can configure it however you want if you want everything back or just a percentage.
Theres so much potential in the Obliterator, it could be used for all sorts of things in the future!
You can find "some" tin ore in barrels outside towers in the Black Forest. Def not much tho.
Yeah but you still have to mine Copper, and I'm fine with that. Just every now and then it would be nice for a shiny rock to fall out in the loot table from a monster.
I didn’t even consider this a thing. Now I really want to be able to find tiered loot in each biome
I'd also like them to rework coal efficiency.
Coal's pretty easy to farm considering you can AFK at a Surtling spawner in the swamp. Just dig under it so they spawn in water.
What do you mean? Isn't it almost 1:1 right now?
Agreed, especially now as you need iron to even cook larger meats or cook sausages. Basically requiring you to defeat two bosses to reward anytime hunting sea serpents or killing draugr.
Wait are you fucking serious??
My understanding is you need the iron cooking rack for serpent and lox meat. Thinking about sausage recipe, you probably only need spice racks to get to lvl 2 cauldron so I'm wrong in that regard.
I would like to add another thing to this. World generation needs to be improved. In my current seed, I went on exploring with my friends to gather iron. We must have passed on 4 or 5 swamps that did not have a single crypt. 2 swamps that only had 1. After a long time we finally found a big swamp with 11 crypts, but that was after roughly 6 hours of exploration. Very frustrating to travel for so long and not find something that's not supposed to be hard to find.
there seem to be a lot of extremely tiny swamp spawns. the first 3 i found were all tiny and had no room for a crypt.
As well they are often disconnected from the land, and the leeches make it a pain to even explore. they seem like the most poorly integrated biome
Crypts aren’t as bad when I decided to stop using a metal pickaxe and use my upgraded antler pickaxe. Build a workbench (with roof) and chests outside the crypt and repair / dump ore as needed. I have a portal built on top of the crypt.
As I move from crypt to crypt I move my workbench. Once I have a full longboat of iron I transport via cart w/leveled swamp using hoe and grab from all crypts in the area.
It works pretty well and it’s much easier than portaling constantly. I go back to dump non-ore items and sleep but that’s it.
>decided to stop using a metal pickaxe and use my upgraded antler pickaxe
You're not able to upgrade the antler pickaxe, though, right? Unless it's new with H&H
Believe you still cannot. This is what I do tho. Bring antler picks and repair them on the crypt roof...since you can build an entire small house and set up there.
I mean.. put a portal up there and you technically have your entire base on top of the crypt. Then if you bring a fully upgraded iron pickaxe not only would you tear through the scrap piles but that one pick *usually* won't need to be repaired until the crypt is fully cleared. I don't have any numbers to back this up but based on my own intuition I'd say that by bringing an iron pickaxe you'd save you a lot of time per crypt.
This is the way. Iron and bronze do more dmg to ore piles and last way longer. Like you said, with a portal to your base, you can repair instantly. Bonus points for moving the portal right next to your forge
A level 3 bronze pick and a good pickaxe stat can handle the mid sized ones
Sorry that’s correct, I normally have multiple with me not an upgraded one
Why did you stop using a metal pickaxe?
Has to be repaired at a forge meaning you have to portal to repair.
So? Takes 30 seconds, lets you repair, reup the rested bonus, and drop other loot.
Load times may vary depending on rig
Fair, that would change how worth doing it is for small things.
This is the problem - I had a desktop rig that ran the game very well but transitioned to a laptop when I moved across the country to Alaska. Now I try to avoid making my laptop work that hard because the game already pushes it a fair amount.
If you have a portal right there, why not just repair at the forge at your base?
because you can repair it at a workbench, i would imagine.
Being 6 copper with you on the boat to the swamp. Then you can build forges instead and repair your metal pickaxes which makes mining faster. (Bring extra bronze or copper for a forge upgrade if you want to repair your metal axe.)
Or just dump your ore in the chest (as you do), teleport back to drop off the non-ore junk, repair, and sleep (or get your rested bonus back.)
Sometimes I do this but other times I can be more efficient by dumping ore into chest, repairing, and going back in for a little more. Normally it doesn’t take a full day to get a load of iron so I only go back at end of day.
Metal pickaxes are so much better for mining than the antler pic
Yeah some sort of transmutation system would be cool, even it would mainly be transmuting into iron. Maybe a crafting thing that requires a lot of all types of metal to create it, then you can exchange 2 for 1 after into what you want. At least have to grind some up front, then you can turn your useless blackmetal into iron.
Or like someone said exchange at the merchant. Then at least all the coins and blackmetal you get from goblins would be worth collecting. I mostly just drop it to save weight and bag space.
Downgrading wouldn’t be a bad idea. Purify the dark metal to iron.
Iron ore is in the game files so maybe it might spawn in the mist lands when they update that biome.
Agree with almost all of this, but personally I’m not a fan of having to use a wishbone style item to find resources. It’s just very gimmicky.
I'm so stocked on black metal and silver I haven't bothered smelting all of it but am starved for iron.
Grinding out mobs is engaging, doing a crypt over and over again is not.
1. I like the system that requires you to go back to the older biomes to get some of the ingredients, e.g. thistle from dark forest. That being said, the amount of time you need to spend getting iron is disproportionate to any other ingredient
2. It doesn't help that, like you said, you can't really pick up iron while doing something else. If I do copper mining, I'm also gathering thistle, blueberries and shrooms, getting some core wood - it feels productive rather than repetitive. About the only useful things you can get from the crypts are intestines for sausages and ooze
3. I don't really know what the proper way to balance it is, finding iron in mountains or plains could be nice, but I'd still like to be forced to go back to each biome every now and then
4. Some of the building pieces requiring full iron bars maybe should just require iron nails instead?
OP you nailed what a proper feedback to the devs should look like:
- Your critic is fair and consolidated with actual metrics.
- You proposes several alternatives.
- Your tone is respectful.
See guys, no pitchworks, just constructive feedback.
Props to you!
Thank you. Most people dont realize, but rallying over concerns and trying to convey them properly can actually contribute to the general improvement of things. My solutions are little more than ramblings, I hope the devs work something out that fit what they plan for the game.
with hearth and home patch i solo started a new game and oh my god bronze is hell. Didnt notice it before coz game was new and we plays with big group of friends. But now...After 4 hours i gave up and installed addon "x3 bronze", that simply make bronze craft bring 3 ingots instead of 1. Still bad but much!!!! more fair as i think.
Anyway, i noticed that skeletons have bronze weapon in their hand.
How about to make mobs drop weapons they use and structure with ability to smelt down metal armor and weapons into ingots ?
A good way to solved the late game iron needs would be, with the wishbone equipped and an iron pick or greater, you can find iron veins in Black Forest. You can only mine the Black Forest iron veins with an iron pick or greater and with the wishbone buff ACTIVE.
That means you still have to kill the boss for the key to the crypt, you still have to go into the crypt for iron. You still need to kill the 3rd boss for the wishbone, but if you need more iron after that you have 3 options: crypt hunting, wishbone swamp search and wishbone Black Forest search.
You could even do the same with plains.
I think that would be a nice way to get more iron.
God i would kill someone with that annoying beeping all the time, plus no belt. Nahh that aint for me.
Although i would really love the forest iron
Yeah I've got a full box of blackmetal scraps/ingots and maybe like 3 iron ingots.
Bumping for interrest! Great idea!
I would like it if the iron nodes buried in the open swamp (outside the crypts) had higher yield
I use a x2 mod specifically for iron and wood from trees. Mad respect to those building in vanilla, but I don't have that kind of time
Add iron ore in the mountains, perhaps in caves lower down vs. the silver at the tops.
Have processing the iron ore require the blast furnace vs. regular smelter for iron scraps
That could work nicely.
I wouldn’t mind the difficulty in mining iron if it wasn’t a key component of doing reinforcement in your base building. If you want a large castle then you will need a lot of wood iron in order to increase your castle height (or bridge spans, etc)
IMO Copper should be smaller, more spread and easier to mine, similar to tin. Beating one node for 30 Min. In one place is boring AF
I agree with most of this. The only good thing I see about the balance of the bronze economy is that it really drills the gameplay loop into new players. After that, it becomes something that takes a lot of time and attention while simultaneously, the chances of anything eventful occurring quickly becomes close to nil.
It is common in other games that once you progress past a certain point, there becomes a way to shortcut to the easier materials, and I think that is the solution this game needs.
It already happens in certain places, like being able to collect coal from surtling geysers with no wood-cutting or furnace-sitting required. Another example is surtling cores which are shortcutted via the same method. But bronze is its own exception, requiring three times as much ore mining AND coal collecting compared to all later metals.
I think this game could do with some copper golems, placed in the plains or a later biome, which can drop something like 4-8 copper ores per piece. Black forest mining would still be the fastest way if you just want mass copper, but by having another source that can appear nearby to other progression-appropriate areas, players would have the opportunity to accumulate copper on the side without requiring that they resign themselves to tens of minutes of thought-repressing activity.
Tin can probably stay the same. You gotta have SOME reason to go back to the old biomes, and tin deposits at least keep you a bit mobile, typically following down a beautiful shore/riverside, not just at one darkened hole in the floor for otherwise valuable blocks of time.
I agree that the iron grind is a slog, and your numbers show it’s by far the ore with the most demand. I’m against any sort of approach that puts iron outside of crypts, because once you no longer need to, you’ll never go back. I think it’s bad game design to render parts of your game obsolete by content later in the game.
However, I would support a buff to iron drops or reducing the price to iron upgrades a bit. Or both. I always want to build with iron but it’s so crucial for gear I never end up using much for projects.
Black Florest dungeons become obsolete later because surtling cores are farmable in ashlands and even in some swamps. While I agree with your accessment, a general balance of dungeons in every biome should be expected later.
As long as the Swamp itself doesnt become obsolete just like black forest doesnt (blueberries, thistle, core wood) I think I'd be fine with sunken crypts becoming obsolete and returning to Swamp for intestines, ooze, ancient bark and maybe some other ingredients they may add in the future
Intestines and blood bags are critical components of good foods, I have bounties out on them on my server. Beyond that ancient wood is unique to the biome, so simply creating some more neat build pieces that require them world give plenty of identity to the swamps (like core wood and BF).
i like the idea of there being some iron nodes in the mountains or plains, but it requires an iron pickaxe to mine them. that way you have to run the crypts first at least. But i think the better solution would be putting some more interesting stuff in the crypts. things that are valuable, but less you need lower quantities of.
the sirtling cores are a great example. you dont need that many of them for a playthrough - but you'll need to clear a good 5-10 skeleton tombs at minimum. And might need to go back later for more. You have to engage with the mechanic, but you dont have to grind it endlessly to progress
I actually also really hate how 2 copper and 1 tin only generates 1 bronze. It should generate 3. Keep that in mind in your numbers comparison. 292 bronze is a total of 876 copper/tin. Personally, I actually prefer iron because it’s one type of node to mine and because you can clear the dungeon rather than having gray dwarves constantly annoy you. I dislike bronze much more than iron.
Technically, the Tin should weigh about half what it does, and two copper and one tin ingot should yield two bronze ingots. Tin is a small portion of what makes up bronze. If tin was lighter it wouldn't be difficult to grab a stack of tin anytime you are doing a foraging run in the black forest.
>Alternative: a way to purify black metal into iron = If a ratio of 1Black metal=(x)Iron then it raises the overall value of late tier metal Alternative: Trading specific itens with Haldor for other metals, including Iron = Improvement on the relevance of the Trader and also on the relevance and value of other materials.
Oof, I could get SOO much Iron from the Reinforced Chest almost full of Black Metal I have, and the ores spread around diff Plain portals.
I agree with most of your points, aside from the fact that i've never found getting iron difficult since most swamps will have at least 3 crypts and each gives around 60+ scrap iron. Most seeds feature at least 1 mega swamp with 10+ crypts, and i actually enjoy gathering iron vice Copper/Tin. Tin especially is a snoozefest without any danger in the activity.
Gathering iron in crypts takes 1/10th the time it takes to mine any rock based node. Rather than reducing iron requirements/uses the game should increases the array of uses bronze/copper/tin/silver. while also increasing the spawn size of wishbone findable muddy scrap considerably (because they aren't worth mining ever).
For example introducing metal pauldrons for the same slot as cape with slightly higher armor but additional movement penalty (example bronze 2-6, iron 4-8, Silver 6-10 Black metal 8-12)
Creating copper/tin/bronze furniture/railing, making a vehicle upgrade table for creating items to equip to them at expense of a item slot, like giving carts Metal wheels to increase their movement speed/durability or giving the karve Bronze Railings to give it an extra 500hp. or a truly expensive bronze set of oars to increase it's speed etc. Could introduce new expensive helpful tools like a Bronze Trough for feeding animals prettily or a 4x1 Bronze planter that lets you plant 4 seeds of the same type in one click (i would farm for literal days to make a fields of these to reduce my planting time.) could also do simple upgrades like a black metal coal stack to hold twice as much wood with a slightly faster production time.
Could also expand the accessory slot items to compete with the belt. things like an amulet to increase parry multiplier .25 or reduce dodge stamina cost by 10% etc.
This should also be coupled by expanding the troll system to each age as well as increasing the range of chitin products. to increase the variety of ways to play and increase the possible usages.
What i mean by the troll system is that when you enter black forests Trolls are a Enemy that poses a serious threat to the player that if killed serves as a high reward/decent alternate advancement. (I tend to use Troll until late silver age because fuck -%movement speed.)
The game could use more enemies that you look at and think OH SHIT, but the drops though...
Could be things like Giving Rancid remains Higher Poison damage and HP with faster attacks and having him drop an item used to craft a Bone Mace with poison damage but low blunt.
Making a Neck Champion with increased hp damage and applying the wet/cold statuses who gets you access to a flint tier polearm, or a multiple spear stack.
Or giving the Wraith Faster Move/Attacks and giving access to Reinforced Bronze Chainmail armor with a range of 8-14 range.
Giving Fenrirlings faster rotations and making them start off with their summon. but drop items for Silver Studded Wolf armor in the 14-20 range. etc
other chitin/sea serpent weapons/armor would also go a long way. (and could replace the Leather scraps build costs with bronze.
(would be nice if sea serpent scales floated too)
Ideally all types of armor would get a set bonus (even if a bland one like +4 armor for wearing full set for the normal metal progression armors.) could do something like immune to wet with chitin, or faster stamina recovery with chainmail, or 1s increased movement speed after hitting an enemy.
I think it could help if fulings randomly dropped one type of ore, maybe even forgoing copper or tin (or dropped a bronze ingot, maybe)
That way roaming the plains and waging war on the little fuckers is more worth it other than just wanting to exterminate them.
real talk, game just needs a difficulty slider. there are different needs for 1 normie vs 10 normies, or 1 pro grinder
Yeah droppable by killing would be good. I like that a lot.
Actually it's kind of funny because it seems like the devs considered this at some point with the leather scraps. You end up farming those passively by mining the scrap piles in the crypts. You don't really need to keep raising boars. Solid post.
That's a really nice post, i always thought it was very hard to gather iron, especially since is used in almost everything. the easiest solution i think it would be to simply add iron ore underground in other biomes, not just the swamps.
I wouldn't mind finding iron in mountains. Silver being regulated to maybe a small vein next to iron would be cool.
Iron is not much fun to mine if you don't like the swamp biome. It's just annoying having to trudge through the rain and then getting swarmed by blobs, draugr and wraiths when you bring your haul of iron ore back to the surface. It gets old pretty soon. It's annoying to have to put the smack down on eels and blobs and skeletons and draugr every time.
Then there's the problem with the quantity of iron needed. To upgrade armour and weapons and other furniture items, crafting items. The quantities are unrealistic. It takes hundreds of iron to fully upgrade a full set of armor, shield and weapon. Not to mention if you want to try out multiple weapons and make iron tools
My five cents about bronze: melting 2 copper + 1 tin to get only one bronze ingot was a terrible idea.
Easiest solution in my eyes would be to make surtlings drop iron in their table, maybe not every kill but as a semi frequent drop. By the end game you’ll have enough iron to happily build with.
The should add iron deposits to the map but make it require a black metal pick to mine, that would keep everything in tact and make it easier to obtain without killing progression.
I would rather have more enemies and a different game flow. My fun in the game died in the swamps with me, because I saw that the game is the same grinding till the end
Iron is like that one dish in your meal thats the most important one, but tastes really bad.
Iron farming is a pain, even if you get the belt that gives you additional carry weight.
They could revamp the fulling drops. Make it such that 1 out of 4 fullings drop black metal, the rest will be iron ore. This way, players will have additional iron that they can use in their builds too.
With black metals evil glow, I'm surprised it doesn't come exclusively from swamps. I'm hoping metals are reexamine come the fog biome installment. As if it's not in swamps an evil looking metal like black metal would make sense to come from the fog lands
Also honestly fulings should drop iron, by time your dealing with fulings your consuming iron like its water
First time I played I was casual spending my time. Did alot of farming and taming boars. Once I got to the iron grind I gave up. Cleared out a few crypts to get my armor and weapons. Now I don't wanna go back.
Though I also don't wanna go back to farm bloodbags lol
I would much prefer if iron was added to plains, like it exists in the swamp, or how silver exists in the mountains. I don't want this game to turn in to minecraft where you build farms to get materials, it should definitely stay a gathering survival game. So, imo, having monsters drop metals is a bad idea.
But it could be very nice if the iron age starts with crypt mining, but when you can survive in the plains without much problem, and you have the wishbone, you could mine iron there. It could be pretty abundant, with the trade off that it's much more difficult to survive there.
Copper should be required more for electricity 🤓
For one, this game is clearly not finished so any change to the games current metal meta would have to be inline with what the devs have planned for the future.
Secondly, I don't see an issue with iron as it is now. My brother and I came out of our first and only swamp with 275 iron bars left over after we both crafted full iron gear. When we got enough iron to make a longship we parked one at the edge of the swamps and transferred scraps to it until it was full.
There is nothing wrong with making a trip to farm bloodbags and iron every now and then and there is plenty of it in the swamps.
You gotta understand, that swamp was the exception.
I've found swamps with 0 iron in them.
The average will have ~3 crypts, maybe.
(Note, i edited the reply to make more sense)
I have to agree. Sometimes you get bad luck but I've had 110 iron from 1 crypt and only mined 40 at best. Sometimes the chests reward you. Also you get Ancient wood, money and chains.
That cant happen until all biomes and bosses are added. Each biome might have a metal and each boss has something it gives.
Iron is so easy to get, i would say its very well balanced. Mining copper is a chore, but Iron we usually get around 3 stacks PER crypt...
Finaly a Well thought out content suggestion on this subreddit xD
wow it's almost like the useful metal is the one that takes effort to find? what is this a videogame? also, you forgot about sconces, the best use for copper. EDIT: sorry. I forgot how much I cranked the scrap iron drop rate in v+ prior to H&H. I agree the mat requirements should be more spread out, and that there should be more diverse sources of iron.
Maybe instead of writing this novel, you could have been farming iron. The current end game will only be the mid game when its complete. That black iron might come in handy later
I just want a two-handed wood axe that has big bonuses for chopping up trees, but sucks against anything else.
Next update should be about the Cult of the Wolf.
You can use the diving rod wishbone thing to find muddy crap piles in the swamp. It’s tedious
Fun Fact: You can use the wishbone to find iron! Just found that out the other day, but again it doesn't give you a ton it's only those small piles.
Well written constructive criticism. Thanks OP.
I'd disagree with lowering the ammount, because as you mentioned it makes sense from a historical/logical pov but I alsl totally agree that getting iron shold have a second option.
I like the mountain idea or the plains but it should be a hard to achive, not tedious like the crypts, but hard as in difficulty, so players don't just bypass the swamp completely. Could be done as a drop from enemies in the mistland biome in future updates, or mineable in the ashlands as soon as there is a more intimidating threat there than some fulings.
Regarding the question if a swamp/mountain biome has crypts/silver ore - there are indirect markets that tells you exactly that:
Every swamp i have seen that has a surtling spawn had crypts in it.
Every moubtain i have hiked up that has a stone golem had silver nodes in it. Additionaly if you are not seeing any obsidian your mountain is not large/big enough. Look for a higher one.
Im sorry I didnt focus much on the silver solutions because I find iron to be far more important and pressing.
That said, the visual cues you mention are a bit unreliable. Swamps with surtling spawns have crypts, but not all swamps with crypts have surtling spawns. It is in fact, easier to find a crypt first before the surtling spawn. I dont think the issue is finding crypts, I think its:
1 the retoric of forcing the player to expire the swamp out of crypts. When this happens there's little to no interest in going back to that swamp, and a search for another starts.
2 IRONinally, crypts are boring and easy when past the iron tier. They become a grinding shore, and are a target of pre-planned mass raids to gather iron because they are the only reliable source of the most used metal.
3 While exploring, we see a swamp, avoid it for the damp and only enter to mark crypts for the iron. - This should also be looked into, the player shouldn't be forced to go back there for a resource "unlocked" early/mid game, instead there should be other reasons late game for coming back. Personally I'd still go there for food materials, but others seem to have a strong opinion about this if we remove the need for raiding crypts.
Regarding silver, one can also transverse mountains for days and not bump into a single golem spawn. But, silver ore nodes could be "linked" to dragon egg nests. That way the player has a visual cue for knowing there's silver in the general vicinity, and the wishbone must be used to pin point it. Player spots drake flying>spots dragon nest on surface>searchs for silver underground.
I also believe the mountain biome itself needs to be revised. Mountains are fairly common but they require quite some height to spawn egg nests and silver, so we have this actually long mountain biomes but not large enough for spawns, making them effectivelly baren of the resources they are sought for.
How about also focusing on the game not stuttering on not low-end hardware.
We need something that gives us the power to transport lower-tier metals through a portal! Only the actual tier should be blocked for portals. At this way we still stay forced to explore the world, but dont need to sail 50X just to build a big, fancy house.
I gave up on the game after my first crypt (after realizing how much iron im going to need to get anything built).
Bronze was tedious enough for me.
Another solution could be an Iron mine that is filled with NPCs. It can have a very big cost to construct but the moment you build it and an NPC will automatically farm the ore. If you want to be extra you could even let them drop it in a specified chest.
I love the idea of purifying black metal into iron, because you can get endless amounts of black metal. If I needed like 50 iron at once I would still make the trip to the swamp and gather it from there. But casually getting black metal in the plains, being able to purify them into iron and getting small amounts would be enough for all those buildable structures and furniture.