By - cambeiu
No wonder they're legalising weed
I literally LOLed at this.
Kimmich in shambles
He literally has covid rn.
I'm _interested_ in how this will play out
He will wait until “I gather enough research” about the vaccines.
Heard he started studying bio science and genetics and he bought a microscope to very closely look at the vaccine before he takes the shot. 🤡
He is a young healthy athlete i doubt anything "interesting" will happen
As a german, no this isn’t even close to being true.
Nobody is arguing for a full mandate, but profession specific mandates are being talked about. However, a decision on that has not been made.
A full lockdown has been ruled out by every political party I’ve heard talking about this. Some states have enforced stricter rules and banned things like christmas markets, others have not.
The headline does not reflect what’s currently being talked about in local news at all.
Why is this the top comment of what I’m browsing if this is abundantly FALSE?
It’s Reddit. When the hell has the top comment on a political topic actually been true?
You expect some writers from american media would reflect comprehensive truth in the opposite side of the earth? Even if they don't put their own biases in their article, it might still be beyond their ability.
He's saying the comment is false, not the article.
> You expect some writers from american media would reflect comprehensive truth in the opposite side of the earth?
But they did. Read the article.
The article by those american writers is *correct*. The comment of the german guy is wrong, because apparently he doesn't follow the news of his own country.
They can’t even get their direct neighbor right
Have you not heard various minister presidents talking about or even demanding a general vaccine mandate (Söder, Kretschmer...)? Yes it absolutely *is* being discussed and the old promises are waning.
Kretschmann (BaWü), not Kretschmer (Saxony).
Bouffier, Günther and Haseloff support it as well: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/impfpflicht-debatte-105.html
> Kretschmann (BaWü), not Kretschmer (Saxony).
My bad, you're right.
Have you read the news? There's a ton of people talking about a mandate for everyone (some excluding kids).
Well he said on reddit he is a German, so it must be true right? S/
I got whiplash from 3 out of 3 things I read coming into this thread, really makes me appreciate how much I do not fuckin know
I went from "Oh damn that's nuts at this stage" to "Oh, yea makes sense that it's not happening I guess, no one is willing to do that shit at this point. Just clickbait." to "oh fuck well idk wtf anymore"
yes, thats how it works. The truth is stretched until it breaks and then you only have pieces to go off. Think for yourself and good luck.
I try, it's the best any of us can do I think. Have a good holiday week :)
If you're German then you automatically have the correct view on your country and no one from outside could tell you you're wrong.
But no one who matters. 2/3 party leaders of the new government have ruled it out for the near future one hour ago on a interview.
How long is the near future though?
Biden and Fauci went from saying there will not be mandates to government employee mandates and trying to force private businesses to fire the unvaccinated in 8 or 9 months.
I don't know much about German politicians but that's a baseline.
are you serious? have you read any of the comments made by politicians in the last couple days? multiple prominent politicians and federal and state officials have literally said that they support a vaccine mandate outright (Söder and Lauterbach to name a few) or that they haven't ruled it out (most notably Baerbock). du bist entweder ein Shill oder einfach ein Vollidiot. Söder hat selber gesagt, dass eine arbeitsspezifische Impfpflicht nicht gerecht wäre und wegen dieser angeblichen Ungerechtigkeit hätte er lieber eine allgemeine Impfpflicht.
I don't understand German, but I did understood Vollidiot.
Same, I also understood 'Impfpflicht' to mean 'the flinging of imps"
To be fair, while there are definitely voices that support it, we haven't heard much from the upcoming government coalition yet, so "Germany considers" is not quite true if by "Germany" the federal government of Germany is meant which is what most will assume.
With the designated chancellor discussing a general mandate yesterday evening on ZDF, this comment aged like milk.
What exactly do you think the definition of “consider” is?
While that was true last month the tide is turning really quickly. With numbers being as absurd as they are right now and the hospital system being overwhelmed locally that isn't surprising at all.
I don't agree with you
Exactly that is discussed at the moment
I doubt it, since we have just that in Austria, so I’d believe it’s very much in the cards for Germany too. If numbers don’t stabilize very soon, you’re also going to have a full lockdown. And then, consequently, a full mandate.
Laughs in Austria - politicians ruled out both upon recently, we have the full lockdown since Monday and will get the vaccine mandate in February (not that I am against any of the measures)
I was just in Munich last week and I had to show my vaccine card like 5x a day. I'm surprised the vaccine rate is so low, given how inconvenient it must be to not be vaccinated.
For what? The user is apparently not following the news. There are absolutely discussions about both.
Merkel has called for a full lockdown according to reports in German media, the incoming government is against it. [Source](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/was-wurde-im-kanzleramt-besprochen-merkel-wollte-schaerfere-massnahmen-ampel-lehnte-ab/27831374.html)
Making the vaccination mandatory for all adults is definitely being considered as well. At least 5 leaders of German states support it. Doesn't mean that it will be a thing anytime soon, but there is definitely a debate on it. [Source](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/impfpflicht-debatte-105.html)
What kind of health care system does Germany make accessible to its citizens in pair with the jab?
How about joining us over here in this thing called "reality"?
> The headline does not reflect what’s currently being talked about in local news at all.
That's why people need to just ignore headlines and read the actual article. It's a total waste of time to complain about a headline when the article text is more nuanced.
And as people have pointed out to you: You're not quite correct and you're spreading your own misinformation.
Since you're German: what's going on there and in some other countries like Netherlands and Russia? We haven't seen such a dangerous spike and hospitalization rates in the States, most of Asia, even Africa. The majority of Germans are already vaccinated so what's up?
Sort of yeah, there is still no decision on that but the there is a discussion about it.
The current status quo seems to be a mandatory vaccination for people who work in healthcare. But a general mandate is still unsure.
Wait so are you telling me that the top subreddits for news love to exaggerate or post opinion pieces as fact? Like some kind of Liberal Fox News? No, it can’t be! That’s not possible!!!!
Unfortunately, in this case the problem is the top comment that so many blindly believe, even though it is plain wrong.
A number of leading politicians have called for making it a compulsory vaccination, among them the leaders of Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Saxony and Berlin. The current acting health minister is against it, but he's not gonna be in office for much longer. There is definitely a discussion about it.
Funny you mention this, I had the same thought of this being possible after writing my comment. Dude it’s sad…I am just so disillusioned with truth. It is nearly impossible to know the true status of anything without having lived it yourself.
What are you even talking about? Just read the article.
Yeah, almost the entire thing is quotes
i'm sure the antivax lobby will take this news well and react in a perfectly normal and civilised manner
My coworkers blame socialism for Germanys vaccine mandates. Always shuts them up when I say that if we had socialized healthcare my parents wouldn’t be dead. Yet here we are.
Germany is not socialist , lol
Gonna be honest, I don’t know much if anything about the economic system of any country that isn’t Murica. But they’re doing something right. To my coworkers, harsh mandates = socialism. I’d rather have mandates during a pandemic than the ability to have 50 guns.
According to a lot of Americans anything they don't like = socialism.
Also communism, which are apparently the same thing
Just the way they mix fascism, nationalism and patriotism. It boils down to group mentality. Give your group a name, hate all other groups. Who needs definitions: we're not gonna listen to those other ppl. anyway.
Socialism is just communism with sprinkles :D
Socialism, Marxism, communism, Democrat, liberal, leftist, CRT, BLM, Antifa… these words all essentially mean the same exact thing to today’s American conservatives, and the vast vast majority cannot correctly define, explain, or identify any of them.
i am from germany and believe it or not, it is possible to live a happy life without guns.
> believe it or not
I think you don't have to tell that person. They are clearlx talking about their coworkers being dunces.
Oh you mean you don’t want the experience of having a redneck wave a gun at you because you wouldn’t move over on the road???? That was empty. That was my brother’s experience.
What? Your brother didn't have his own gun to wave back? Surely it would have ended better if he was a good guy with a gun.
Even if they would want to keep their guns they could still just have the healthcare that is the norm in north-western Europe.
I'm guessing that to your coworkers, "anything they don't like or understand" = socialism
Mandates and laws most definitely =/= socialism.
Please forgive us, we’re in Texas where fighting with Big Bird takes precedence
How can you fight a Big Bird when birds aren't real?
You beat up the puppeteer inside him.
We're meaning your state senator?
The actual percentage of people fighting against mandates are pretty small, but those people tend to be loud and forceful.
Unfortunately a lot of my family is very loud and forceful. I’m the only one vaccinated, skipped family trips, etc. I had family visit from Iowa because they wanted a vacation with no mask mandates. I’m definitely in the minority
GOP cancel culture is going after cartoons.
When I get on Nextdoor to troll the crazies, usually with a few glasses of wine in me, any time someone brings up helping the homeless or taking care of the sick, someone always starts screaming their head off about socialism. Then, they immediately go to communism. Like, pick one.
They can't. They are intellectually incapable of understanding the difference.
You can have both, but the powers that be wouldn't have something to squabble over.
Those two subjects aren't related at all though. A civilians right to purchase weapons has no impact at all on your Healthcare system.
Should’ve clarified, coworkers say that Europe and the like don’t have guns because they traded that freedom for “government mandates like healthcare.”
Personally if I had to choose, I’d pick healthcare.
> Europe and the like don’t have guns because they traded that freedom for “government mandates like healthcare.”
To be clear, plenty of European countries it's relatively easy to get a gun.
People just choose not to.
Gun culture and too many movies.
That and in a big country, police response times are longer.
The notion that we somehow traded our gun rights for healthcare in a pivotal "either or" moment is utterly stupid. In the case of Germany, government mandated healthcare had been created in the late 19th century (during imperial times). In which there were no nationwide gun laws at all. But facts are socialist too I guess.
socialists: hear me out, what if we had both guns and healthcare?
You can use one to keep the other high in demand!
>Always shuts them up when I say that if we had socialized healthcare my parents wouldn’t be dead.
My condolences. You don't have to answer of course, but I'm curious now. What did your parents die from?
Also, since you asked one or two comments further down the line: The German (and most European - I'm Austrian) economic model is completely normal, run of the mill free market capitalism. The difference to the US is simply a more robust social safety net (including a form of de facto universal healthcare coverage as you alluded to), a higher degree of decommodification (which means more services in Germany are public rather than privatized, again healthcare but also education or mobility being some well known examples) and to afford all of this, the German tax payer, *generally speaking*, pays a higher tax rate than the American one.
The vast majority of German businesses are privately owned by investors and business owners rather than publicly by the state or by the workers themselves (which would be socialism). You probably know this either intuitively or factually, but the talking point that Germany (or France, or the UK, or Norway, or Denmark, or Europe in general) is "socialist" is mostly an attempt to scare the American people away from all of the above mentioned changes to the US economy. Since there aren't many rational arguments against a socialized healthcare and education system, the end of private prisons, a higher availability of public transports, etc, it's easier to repeat the whole red scare again or argue that the public sector is by definition corrupt and incompetent (which is also a lie).
Funnily enough, since we live in a capitalist system in Europe as well (some Americans like to forget that it was Europeans who invented this system in the first place lol), we suffer from the same short-comings of capitalism. The only difference is that it manifests itself in different ways. Currently, we're in a Europe-wide housing crisis which is a result of the questionable decision to treat housing like a business (commodity) rather than a basic human need like clean water or education. Thankfully, people [are waking up to it](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/29/berlin-vote-landlords-referendum-corporate) slowly, but it'll probably be one of the big fights of our generation in Europe (together with decarbonizing the economy and working towards a more federal Europe).
Hope that helps!
EDIT: Oh and [here's a nice little speech](https://www.kpoe-graz.at/wohnungspolitik-muss-teil-der-sozialpolitik-sein.phtml) from the communist party (yes, they are legit communist lmao) in Graz, the second largest city in Austria. If you're interested, you can just throw it into google translate. That was exactly 10 years ago - today they are [the strongest party](https://www.graz.at/cms/beitrag/10377517/8106610/Graz_hat_gewaehlt.html) in the Grazer Gemeinderat (city council/parliament) which is kinda funny.
The communist party of austria who won in Graz legit put up roadsigns around the city with the text "The Communist Zone starts here" complete with a sickle and a hammer on it. It's fucking hilarious lmao.
I’m very much in favor of vaccines and this still is worrisome
Well yeah, no one should take the government forcing a vaccine on to people lightly.
I'm vaccinated and what not, but I don't agree with Making it mandatory.
I'm all about personal freedoms when it only affects you... The problem is people's ignorance is filling up hospitals hard, and if it continues grandma can't get her chemo cause covid patients are lining the halls and Becky can't give birth in a hospital cause the staff is already thin trying to help covid patients in the lobbies. Etc.
I'm not excited about it either. I think a better solution is to refuse Healthcare to covid patients by prioritizing regular patients. "Alright. You're up and out of here, Lauren needs the bed for her childbirth. You can keep the oxygen tank, good luck."
Singapore started doing this I believe, unvaccinated covid patients now have to pay for treatment, it’s still cheaper but not free anymore.
The problem with this is that now, anybody can get a vaccine. A vaccine reduces the risk of hospitalization exponentially. If the people dying are the ones who are unvaccinated, that’s their problem.
We don’t say that obese people who have a heart attack can’t get emergency care because it’s their fault that they’re obese
If there was a way to avoid obesity as easy as getting two or three shots it might be worth a consideration.
It requires literally no effort to get a potentially life saving vax.
I also find it absurd to push these life and death decisions on health care workers. It's so unnecessary yet we turn their life into hell.
I'm generally against vax mandate as well, but given how fucked up the situation is and how dumb people are I don't see an alternative now.
Other vaccinations like polio and measles are mandatory, too.
Because the health system in Germany is public. Unvaxxed people are costing millions in tax payer money because of personal reasons. Making the vaccine mandatory is one way to solve the issue. Other way is to opt out from covid treatment, but then you get into moral issues.
So, you agree with 500+ daily preventable deaths due to scientifical illiterate idiots.
Because these are the two options.
At this point, anyone who dies from COVID could have avoided it. Get your shots and let's just move on as a society, that's my opinion. I've had it with the people who are concern trolling and extending a) any sort of anti-COVID spread measures and b) support for ludicrous government mandates to put something in your body.
I've noticed a lot on BBC recently. Just feels like gaslighting. UK has had a huge amount of deaths and NHS has been pushed to limits. Now that they seem to be over the worst but still have high numbers, its this UK has done well and avoided lockdown while Europe has f'd up.
Source for discussion of a lockdown in Spain?
The closest I saw were restrictions to opening hours and maximum capacity, which hardly compares to the 2020 or early 2021 situation.
As of right now, in my region we're implementing the COVID passport to avoid other extreme measures
Depending on the Supreme Court, usage will be extended to other places.
The third jab has been confirmed on the elderly too. And some comments have appeared from regions like Madrid where they're thinking of doing something more extreme.
Lockdowns were ruled illegal by our Supreme Court, so we now wait to see what is done.
Do note i mentioned were having talks. Not that Spain is talking about a lockdown.
Edit: wow that must have been the fastest downvote I have ever received, barely posted and already minus lmfao
When’s someone going to tell Germany this whole thing was an American democrat hoax so their people will stop dying?
What to say, Austria has already a lockdown and presumably mandatory vaccines with February. Germany you old copycat.
That's when I hopped off this train.
Look, I got vaccinations and just got my booster. But then hearing that mandates and lockdowns will continue? Even if I did everything asked of me to protect others, no problem. This goalposts being moved will push reasonable people towards the side resisting EVERYTHING, and that isn't the answer, look at how insane some of them appear to be.
THIS SHIT IS ENDEMIC NOW. It quit being a PANDEMIC months ago, probably longer. If your gonna act like the presence of covid means we need lock downs forever, then piss off.
Common sense has been utterly lost, and there doesn't seem to be any recovering it. Why are you so scared of unvaxxed people if you are vaccinated? They don't wanna get it, what're you gonna do hold them down on the street and inject them?
It's gotten to the point where the ones being overwhelmingly inconvenienced are those who just want to move the fuck on and so many people on both sides prefer to stay stuck in this shit. Jesus people get a grip.
It’s honestly insane.
I've never protested anything in my life. I'm double vaxxed. But if these cunts in Parliament try to lock us down again come next winter I will be out in the streets.
I'm with you on this. I'm a healthcare worker, but not one of the anti-vaccine ones. I've been amazed at our inability to let each other exist ever since the vaccine came out. That should've been the end of it. Worried? Get vaccinated. Not worried? Then don't. With that being said, why are lockdowns still occurring?
It's certainly making me want to throw my hands up at all of it and throw all of it in the garbage, so the dynamic you're describing is definitely happening
As a healthcare worker whats your suggestion for overwhelmed hospitals aside from lockdowns/restrictions/vaccine mandates? Tell covid patients to die at home or keep cancelling/delaying other non covid treatments and let those patients die at home?
I'm all for living a normal life and letting people live theirs but once hospitals are getting overwhelmed by covid patients you have to make tough choices. It isn't surprising that when push comes to shove leaders don't want to tell people to die at home.
People throw personal agency out the window as well. I feel the slightest hint of something coming on? You'd best bet it's hermit time. But I realize 90% of people are fucking pieces of shit who don't care about anything except that they go out and have fun day in and day out, so I get it too. I'm not one of those people
Not everyone out and about is simply doing it to have fun day in and day out. I'd wager a vast majority are doing it because they have bills to pay and mouths to feed. Not everyone participating in society is doing it "for the luls", most have shit to do and are lucky if they can slow down enough to do things simply because they enjoy them. Cheers to you
Agreed with this. I wore my masks, got my jabs and now the disease is killing only a small fraction of 2020 numbers, and it is not going away no matter what. I'll keep wearing masks, but I'll ignore other restrictions, cause they're taking it too far.
look at the numbers of covid currently in germany
it doesnt matter how you call it or how well youre protected
with those numbers something has to be done
It is still a pandemic when health systems are on the point of collapse.
Some people just hate leaving the house and don't want others to, either
Do you understand that hospitals are on their limits, a few days ago 97% of intensive care beds in Munich were occupied? 2 people had to be flown to Italy already to treat them because neighboring Bundesländer had no capacity either? The system is on the brink of collapse.
You know it's bad when surgeries for cancer removal get postponed. Tell me what you would do. I'm interested.
97% is common icu capacity because the icu capacity number has always been misused for hospital funding reasons.
97 is a bit higher than normal but 80-100% is the common range and colder months it’s normal in the 90 percents
That’s cause Reddit is full of nerdy introverts who stay home either way, so they truly can’t fathom how brutal lockdowns are on people who socialize normally. I’m one of those introverts who can stay home 24/7, but I realize that I’m not normal. Most people suffer when they can’t be around people for extended periods of time.
Asking Reddit if we should all just stay inside is like asking a convent of nuns if we should avoid sex to limit the spread of STD’s.
If you're having a lockdown you can't have it for some people only. It would be unenforceable.
Exactly, like the way we only allow sober people to drive.
That's not really the same thing at all. A drunk driver is pretty easily identifiable, and any suspicious driving allows an officer to administer a test. The only way a system like that would work for vaccinations is if you had officers patrolling all public places, demanding to see everyone's papers. I'm sure that would go over great, especially in Germany.
> demanding to see everyone's papers. I'm sure that would go over great, especially in Germany.
Erm... covid passports are already required in Germany for plenty of events and venues.
A lockdown for the unvaccinated, and everyone else occasionally having their covidpass scanned, wouldn't be much of a change really.
It’s like they love the boot
I get why people argue that they should have the right not to put X in their body. But people who decide to take the vaccine should also have the right not to be exposed to the idiots who choose to prolong this pandemic.
Get vaccinated or lock yourself down so society can keep moving without you, it's simple.
EDIT -- to the sheldon coopers commenting on my semantics, I'm aware that even with 100% vaccination rate covid is highy likely to stay and become endemic... the problem is that when people who aren't that bright read this sort of statements, they automatically reinforce their own *idiotic* believe: " *why would I take a vaccine if covid is going to prevail anyway?* *checkmate* "
so I understand that we'll technically *never* fully erradicate covid, the same way we've never been able to erradicate the flu, measles, and whatnot, but there's also a reason why nowadays we don't say we still have a pandemic of those other diseases in spite of cases still being reported here and there, right?
The courts have long held that the right to decide to not vaxx runs until there is an active and credible threat from a disease. Then 1) you can be vaxxed for your own safety but really 2) you can be vaxxed to ensure you don’t harm the entire community’s and individuals’ liberty to be free from your infection.
These rulings go back to the 1919 Flu.
I don't know about Germany, but in the US, the rulings predate the 1919 flu. The main court case was over a 1902 smallpox outbreak.
Germany also received a completely new constitution after some undisclosed things happened around the late 30s to mid 40s. Probably why it's being discussed whether or not mandatory vaccinations are compatible with our Grundgesetz (effectively our constitution). Last I heard they are according to experts but who knows, other experts might disagree.
"undisclosed things" lol my sides
Good point. Thanks!
The main point is that we need to ensure COVID does not excessively take up the limited resources we can allocate for health care.
While COVID is likely not going away, vaccines ensure that the majority of people will have mild symptoms and that transmission will be far lower. This no strain on the health care systems. It is as simple as that.
If we coped in 2020 when 0% of the population was vaccinated, there's no reason why we can't cope in 2021 when 50% of the population is vaccinated.
Isn't the vaccine supposed to prevent hospitalization/serious illness?
They do have the right to not be exposed though…it exists in their right to stay home and hide from the world if they are scared. Their choice was to get vaccinated and increase their level of protection against covid. If they feel like that level of protection from covid isn’t adequate enough then that means the vaccine isn’t effective enough.
It is not their right to dictate what other people have to do medically, nor is it their right to force other people to stay home for the sake of their peace of mind.
Absolutely, couldn't of said it better.
> I'm aware that even with 100% vaccination rate covid is highy likely to stay and become endemic...
Japan would like a word
“Prolong the pandemic” is an interesting phrase. I agree everyone should be vaccinated but covid is here to stay even with 100% vaccination rate. The disease will be endemic now, it’s been said by epidemiologists for almost a year, and with the vaccines waning efficacy it’s almost universally agreed upon now.
So if “prolong the pandemic” means the disease will become endemic later rather than sooner I agree but it doesn’t really matter sorry to burst your bubble if you thought otherwise but covid will likely be here for the rest of you life.
EDIT: To your edit. *25-50 million people in the US get the flu each year*. If 25-50 million people getting Covid in the US each year is what endemic means then will you just accept that? (that's as many cases the US has had in the past 2 years). Keep in mind the R0 of Covid is 4-8 while the R0 of the flu is 1.5-2. Also comparing it with the measles is odd since measles doesn't mutate in a comparable way to Covid or the flu which allows it to escape immunity. Once you're inoculated you're pretty well protected always. You generally only see measles outbreaks crop up in small populations of primarily unvaccinated children.
If you're vaccinated and take precautions why support indefinite/a continuous cycle of restrictions on what you can do, when you can go outside, where you can travel, how many people you can have over at your house. You should be free to live your life and not be afraid or deal with the restrictions in day-to-day life - we will be living with covid for a long, long time.
If the virus becomes ENdemic then the PANdemic is over, it'll be just another virus like the flu that circulates through a population where almost everyone has had some exposure to it.
The fastest way to achieve that (without risking a large death toll) would be to vaccinate everyone as fast as possible and then drop all preventive measures like masks, distancing, etc.
If large parts of the population are not vaccinated, then we can't open up everything, because we'd risk again to overload our hospitals and ICUs. This is why not getting the vaccine prolongs the pandemic and keeps everyone from enjoying their freedom.
>If the virus becomes ENdemic then the PANdemic is over, it'll be just another virus like the flu that circulates through a population where almost everyone has had some exposure to it.
Yeah, people tend to forget things like the fact that the Spanish Flu (A/H1N1) is still with us today, with frequent outbreaks (primarily in Asia). Because most people have some degree of immunity to it today, it isn't killing millions of people any longer, but people still get sick and a small percentage of them still die from it.
Semantics over common sense. The point stands, get vaccinated or stay home.
Agree. It’s always the libertarian types who like to pick apart unimportant details to filibuster the discussion about vaccine mandates that save lives. Vaccin me mandated have been legal since the advent of the vaccine era. Just because we have a media led confederacy of dunces doesn’t mean those of us who get it should be shy about using the levers of power we have to protect society from these fools
no, they think YOU should stay home if you are worried about covid. and what is their plan to tackle this virus that has killed millions? do nothing. honestly, this pandemic really showed some people's true colors.
So if those people end up getting sick, they're going to refuse treatment so they don't overwhelm the system, right? Because that's the main issue here - unvaccinated idiots currently make up the vast majority of ICU patients, and the number of available beds is already at the limit. But apparently libertarians are only libertarian when they want freedom for themselves, they have no qualms about utilising socialised healthcare when they're the ones who need it...
> So if those people end up getting sick, they're going to refuse treatment so they don't overwhelm the system, right?
no. healthcare is a human right.
its true that we will never be rid of it, but our hospitals are being overwhelmed with it right now. doing nothing because its gonna be around for awhile isn't an answer when car crash victims die because of lack of beds.
Also, the vaccine does reduce transmission, severity, recovery time, and lethality, even if it wanes in effectiveness over time, it helps our systems that are treating this have more time to manage outbreaks.
They just consider, like Austria that announced mandatory vaccination for Feb. 2022, but from the Nurnberg Code signed in 1947 this wont be possible. I guess the 2nd WW and the code signer right after will save anti-vaxers today, but this is not about non-vaxers if you ask me, its basic human right to have a decision about what to inject into your own body for gods sake people!
Oh cut it out with the conspiracy theories...oh wait
As a double, soon triple vaccined German, this is bullshit
Really? As a soon to be triple-jabbed German, I say it's been long past time since August.
Fuck the unvaxxed, they're exclusively at fault for the pandemic still being in effect.
Anyone saying anything else is lying to himself at this point. We could've moved past this shit months ago, but personal freedoms are still more valuable than uniformally applied common sense.
There isn't a pandemic still in effect though lol and if by your logic there is, the vaccines are a failure
Ahhh so when Germany is 100% vaxxed, COVID will be over and everything goes back to normal? Who will you blame then?
> Ahhh so when Germany is 100% vaxxed, COVID will be over and everything goes back to normal.
Yes, that's exactly it. The incidence among unvaccinated people is 10-20x higher than among vaccinated people right now.
>personal freedoms are still more valuable than uniformally applied common sense
Sounds evil to me...
No they aren't at fault for it. If so, explain why Ireland is having such big problems with the virus despite extremely high Vax numbers. Explain Israel too. You saying it's the unvaxxed peoples fault doesn't make it true.
Man, I've gotten so damn tired of repeating this exact point over and over the last couple of years. Only to watch people take half measures and say 'See? Doesn't work'.
It feels like the most futile mantra, but it's true. Just listen to experts and think of others for once, it's not even that hard.
I'm from the UK and people here really would prefer to bury their head in the sand than admit there's still a problem.
Yeah, that's probably the most infuriating part about the unvaxed, dirty plebeians. "I didn't wear my mask anywhere and lick door knobs as a hobby. Why isn't the pandemic over yet?". Fucking idiots, every last one of them. Especially the stupid fucks that explain it like "Well, I rarely leave the house amyway, so why do i need to be vaccinated?". Fuck you, that's why. Just fucking do it already, I miss going out for drinks.
>I miss going out for drinks.
Then go out for drinks homie, because if you're vaccinated, it basically isn't shit. My family had a breakthrough case. They were fine by day 3 and they weren't even that sick the previous days. The other 5 of us didn't catch it and we live in close proximity. Wait, strike that, another of us did catch it but they were asymptomatic.
Covid is now a feature of our lives. It will never go away. Mandates will never happen everywhere all at once. You're never going to convince all the anti-vax people. It's just the reality at this point. If you're vaccinated, you need to stop living in fear and start enjoying your life.
If you are vaccinated why are you worried?!
No one is denying this. But the rates at which unvaccinated and vaccinated people end up in hospitals and ICUs clearly shows that getting the vast majority of people vaccinated would prevent lockdowns like these.
Yup. And I really strongly dislike all those "clever" people who seem to solely be interested in finding loopholes in regulations designed to reduce the spreading of the virus - and who then gloat and brag about it.
Like the mayor of Erfurt, who is against the limitation of 2000 visitors at a time for the christmas market there, so he found out that the regulations do not prevent him from having SEVERAL christmas markets on his town square at the same time, each with its own 2000 visitor limit.
Or the neighbor here who disliked the "only one household plus one extra person" contact limit during the last lockdown, so for her birthday she created an elaborate schedule to invite all her 20 friends on that day, each for 15 minutes, one after the other, so she could claim "well, I only had one visitor at a time".
As someone who lives in the world's most locked down city, Melbourne, all I can say is that a sharp lockdown can prevent the worst. It's rough, but according to the article only 68% of Germans are fully vaccinated which is woefully low.
When we went through 262 days of restrictions and rolling lockdowns the vaccine wasn't available, but we endured and we didn't see the sort of mass infection and death that other cities around the world had to experience.
I applaud the 68% of Germans who did the right thing, but if nearly a third of your country aren't willing to do what's right to protect their neighbours then these sort of restrictions are simply an ugly reality born from their selfishness and ignorance.
> if nearly a third of your country aren't willing
This includes children. The German CDC (in this case the Stiko) has allowed kids 12-18 to be vaccinated, but decidedly not recommended it. The 80+ group is vaccinated at 85%. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1258043/umfrage/impfquote-gegen-das-coronavirus-in-deutschland-nach-altersgruppe/
In Portugal the 80+ group is at 100% (more like 99.7 something but they round it)
That is true although the amount of eligible people for vaccination that are vaccinated is around 80-85% as of right now, younger children still cannot get the vaccine
> 68% of Germans are fully vaccinated which is woefully low.
It doesn't stop amazing me how people on reddit casually say stuff like this, and meanwhile here in Ukraine we're at 23% at the moment.
the Ukraine being at 23% doesnt change the fact that 68% isnt as good as it should be
it just shows that the Ukraine is doing abysmal
I'm not disagreeing, just saying that it's astonishing to see how the western standards have diverged from ours to the point that people consider "woefully low" a number that here would be considered unattainably, fantastically high over here.
Germans doing German things.
If vaccinated people like me [can still spread COVID](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html), and COVID can spread among the [wild animal population](https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid-19-and-wild-animals#2) and still infect humans, what's the point of all this? Isn't it obvious at some point that we simply cannot and will not successfully vaccinate our way out of COVID?
Yeah in a perfect world it'd be great if everyone had identical thoughts about the nature of personal responsibility, but that's not the world that we live in. Is it really wise to be doing more and more and more of the same, if the current approach just doesn't seem to be working?
Even if you insist that lockdowns do work at minimizing COVID, what about the [unintended consequences](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/what-docs-are-seeing-after-two-lockdowns-kids-with-bent-bones/articleshow/87814507.cms) that [could still lead to](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/02/962060105/child-psychiatrists-warn-that-the-pandemic-may-be-driving-up-kids-suicide-risk) [even worse, longer-lasting problems?](https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20211013/childrens-suicide-attempts-have-increased-during-covid19-pandemic) Is this well-intentioned effort truly socially and scientifically justifiable?
I simply don't get what the trouble is. If you're afraid of COVID and feel you are at risk, please get the vaccine. If you don't feel it's worth it, then nobody should ever be compelled to inject something into their body that they're deeply uncomfortable with. Since the vaccination severely lessens the harmful effects of COVID, those who are already vaccinated should be fine and overwhelmingly likely stay out of the hospital even if they do get infected. If you say "but statistically it will drive up hospitalizations and infect the innocent," then A) what about the vaccinated who still spread it? and B) shouldn't the innocent therefore take advantage of vaccines if they feel they're at risk?
This just seems like an insane way to solve a problem, and the response to its obvious lack of success is to double-down on it and hope that it goes better this time. It just doesn't make sense to me.
If they're serious about handling this pandemic properly, the discussion should be about infected vs. uninfected, not vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
The current vaccine passport/mandate system would allow an infected vaccinated person through yet exclude an uninfected unvaccinated person.
Really speaks volumes as to where their priorities lie.
Regardless of lockdown or not lockdown, I think the efficacy of the vaccine against the spread of the virus needs to be reexamined. Countries cannot hard lockdowns for a month or months every year.
Cases shouldn't be rising as they are with 60%+ being vaccinated, imo. I know in the US our vaccine rate sucks, but even in my county which is 70%+ how do we have more cases of covid now than during the summer of 2020 when there was no vaccine and the lockdowns had been lifted for months? I can already tell the hottest topic of 2022 will be covid19 boosters and there's going to be a shit ton of American's, especially in the poorer areas(rural country and inner city), who will not get the booster. That's always been the trend with the yearly Flu shot, no reason to believe it's not going to happen if there's now a yearly covid19 shot.
> I think the efficacy of the vaccine against the spread of the virus needs to be reexamined.
It's constantly being evaluated. The vaccine is still very effective.
> how do we have more cases of covid now than during the summer of 2020 when there was no vaccine and the lockdowns had been lifted for months?
Delta (it's much more infectious than the original virus). Also, it's not summer anymore. Without the vaccine things would be so much worse right now.
> no reason to believe it's not going to happen if there's now a yearly covid19 shot.
Currently nobody knows whether more than one booster is needed. There are many other vaccines that need a third shot after 6 months but then give immunity for a long time. The Flu needs a yearly shot because it mutates so fast. The COVID virus mutates much slower.
I’m not sure if this is a bad faith argument but it’s not that hard. The issue is that as long as there is a large number of unvaccinated who get severely sick and go to the hospital, it pushes the healthcare system, and by extension the normal functioning of our societies towards the brink. Your model only works if we say fuck the unvaccinated, they cannot get hospital beds, or will have to make do with a limited number of beds that we allot to them (and the rest can suffocate at home). A much better model would be that everyone is vaccinated and the number of hospitalizations drops to near zero.
That logic is highly dependent on the ratio and absolute % of unvaxxed to vaxxed likelihood of being a significant burden to the state. I havent seen detailed figures on this, but I've seen ratios of 5x-10x age adjusted being quoted.
We could then start looking at age/conditions- an unvaccinated healthy 35 year old might be 10x more likely to need intensive care or die, but is still exceedingly unlikely due to the risk factors that drive covid - significantly less than a vaccinated obese pensioner who doesnt get their booster and regularly goes out to social events.
We could then start looking beyond covid. What's the net burden to the state of treating those that drive dangerously or do dangerous sports. What's your net burden to the state of an obese smoker vs a healthy individual. What's the net burden to the state of allowing couples with bad genetics to reproduce vs those with good genetics.
I dont know where the logic ends, I suspect in very subjective places. But I dont think a fair review would end in fuck the unvaccinated- it might be for example fuck the unhealthy un vaccinated, the old vaccinated who didnt get a booster shot or who went out to a theatre.
Who would blame any German to distrust the state.
A shame we cant reason with the deniers and antivaxxers. Im propably losing another family member this winter due to covid.
Yet im still not pro mandatory vax. Im affraid this is the step too far, altho there is imho no rational argument against it.
Fucking interesting times..
Germany going full authoritarian round 2
This is going to sound like a disregard for human life but I’m over it at this point. Why don’t we open the economy and let nature take course. Let the people who believe in vaccines take them and those who don’t, get their freedom to contact the flu.
Fully agreed. It’s to the point now where vaccines are so readily available, that if you were going to get one, you’d have it by now. Let the healthy adults proceed with their lives, if people want to roll the dice let them.
Conspiracy theorists proven right again
Conspiracy theorists have been on a roll since 2020.
Lockdown is a waste of time. We didn't in Texas, COVID spread hard like wildfire for about 3 months, then it dissipated. Not completely gone, but life is normal. You can't stop COVID, only delay it. Once it sweeps through, it dwindles down to very manageable levels. Will never be gone, but will be treatable.
Lockdowns don't get instituted to stop COVID, they get put in place to protect the health system so it doesn't get swamped.
We don't want hospitals flooded with COVID patients to the point that they cannot treat anything else or even all the COVID patients that come in.
Our life in germany is in most ways normally too the difference to the us is just over half a millon(even more) less deaths! So yeah lockdown does nothing -exept saving lifes!
83 mil people in germany in 2021-51ooo died due to the pandemic since the beginning
332mil people live in usa and 790k deaths since the beginning
3x times more people than us but also almost 16x times more deaths... lockdowns rly do nothing u are so right... i cant facepalm enough at this...
No, that is not actually what is being discussed here in Germany rn.
I am from Germany, no one said this, we always try to keep our "Weihnachtsmarkt" open, having a vacation in Ischgl, or meet with 40 close friends without masks (/sarcasm) we really need a solution, FAST
The fire rises