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MyDudeNak

When China says "you aren't allowed to go here" there is no longer a more intelligent way to support Taiwan.


Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho

If Pelosi backed down, China would see it as a sign of weakness, and be emboldened to threaten to kill any US official that does something Xi doesn't like. We have no choice but to stand our ground, appeasement doesn't work.


polytopey

Yup, testing the water, pushing the edges, they'll demand more and more, "normalizing" things more and more, and before we know it ... For example, it's now "norm" for Apple and many corporations to appease to the CCP's demands. The "norm" for Hollywood to make movies to make China looks good, when Russians are still mostly the bad guys, Chinese are "friends".


Mr_Zeldion

China - stay away from Taiwan or war. America - OK sorry dad China - good now stay away while we reclaim Taiwan America - OK what ever you say China - OK now don't get involved in Russia invasion of poland or war America - what ever you say boss Or China - stay away from Taiwan or war America - sorry can reach your message as currently landing in Taiwan China - if you keep visiting Taiwan we will invade! America - dude Taiwan sure know how to party your missing out I know what I'd rather


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Flussiges

And we didn't do shit so one point to China. Thanks Pelosi.


ArmpitEchoLocation

Yes, history showed that permitting: -Anschluss -The German annexation of the Sudetenland -The dismemberment of all of Czechoslovakia -The Italian colonization of Albania and various Greek islands -The German annexation of the Memelland -The Russian annexation of Crimea — were all mistakes that led to further escalation. None of these being tolerated worked, and only the first had a sizeable defence force even at the time. The rest are a mockery of international norms. Authoritarian regimes only know force, and see appeasement as pure weakness in a way that fleeting democratic governments — in charge by design for only a moment in time — don't always. Authoritarians will always rattle their sabres, but free peoples everywhere cannot back down, history tells us this.


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TheRed_Knight

while missing some of the context events


medalboy123

Yeah Redditors and most other "observers" use WW2 way too much in their understanding of geopolitics which is just plain ignorant.


TheRed_Knight

its just a massive oversimplification, like they arent entirely wrong that appeasing autocrats is a bad idea but its a helluva lot more complex than that


reddit_user_100

Specifically what complexity is missing above that would add more nuance to the argument?


TheRed_Knight

> -The German annexation of the Sudetenland >-The dismemberment of all of Czechoslovakia This was a strategic decision made by the French and English, albeit a shitty one. Hitler intentionally made ridiculous demands in the hopes they would refuse and he could start WWII right there, since Germany had a massive military advantage at the time, the Brits and French were aware of this, acquiesced to his demands, which pissed Hitler the fuck off, then started prepping for war.


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ZephkielAU

The leaders who made those decisions are no longer in power. It's a core feature.


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ZephkielAU

>but US foreign policy will always remain the same. Nope, sorry. The US and Iraq consider themselves strategic partners now. What else you got?


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ZephkielAU

From your own link: >The government now has a popular mandate to request that troops leave, but it is unclear if this is legally binding and no timetable was laid out in the resolution. >The resolution also does not enjoy the support of a large cross-section of Iraqi society. Most Sunni lawmakers and all Kurdish members of parliament sat out the session. Also, "Donald Trump" (former leader). You also conveniently ignored [this](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/12/09/us-formally-ends-combat-mission-in-iraq/) What else you got?


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ViciousNakedMoleRat

I'm not going to defend the various invasions the US undertook since the end of WWII, but you have to make a distinction between invasions and annexations. Both Taiwan and Ukraine are facing the risk of annexation. The countries the US invaded never did.


Miserable-Lizard

What's the difference between a puppet government and annexation? Both seem the same to me.


WordWord-1234

Latter means taxpayers' money will be used to provide welfare for *our* poor people, while the former means taxpayers' money will be used to support democracy overseas.


Enders-game

So let china annex Taiwan and Russia annex Ukraine?


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Billybob9389

Doesn't that only prove his point?


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Billybob9389

Because China sees how Russia's invasion of poor country is going. One where Russia has every advantage imaginable going in. Meanwhile, China doesn't. It's resource poor, and has to cross a straight where it's troops will get absolutely massacred, and it's country brought to its knees when it gets blockaded.


CookiesandBeam

And the US annexed Hawaii and UK annexed half the world, as did Spain, Portugal, France. I'm absolutely against the invasion of Ukraine and any attack by China on Taiwan, it's bad enough what they've done in Hong Kong, but I find it amazing to see the hand wringing now especially by the US and UK, while pulling the curtain over their own closets and saying no don't look in there!


Enders-game

We either shut up and let them get on with it or speak up. What would you have us do?


cosmernaut420

I don't think anybody is saying "The US and UK have never made morally questionable diplomatic decisions in the name of empire", so what's with all the whataboutism? Denizens of whole countries aren't allowed to call out the brazen authoritarian bullshit of others because our leaders have historically also engaged in authoritarian bullshit? Please, no country's history is pristine.


Miserable-Lizard

The problem is they still do those same actions. Nothing as changed


CookiesandBeam

It would be something if they acknowledged their own blood stained barbarous colonialism and did something to address those issues. It's great that they support Ukraine, but at the same they do very little to make up for their own past and continuing injustices


cosmernaut420

I still fail to see why an imperfect country, with distinct and obvious experience in the matter, isn't supposed to critique other nations for actively doing something they've done historically. Or are you also trying to tell me the US is threatening to start a world war over attempts to annex other countries' territory right now?


Zao1013

Since the end of colonization and the dismantlment of most of those nations empires, along with international agreements since WW2, we have all agreed not to change borders by force. That's what makes this so different and so wrong compared to the past. We cant use the past wrongs to justify or excuse current wrongs..


RadiantOpportunity44

Can we not try to do differently? Many people in the US spoke up against wars, especially in the last 40 years. I think we'd all like to see a better world that doesn't rely on violence to solve its problems. The toughest part is stopping the violence currently happening. No one is innocent because every country has stuff like that in their past. But we can decide to do better.


bedrooms-ds

But the problem is China threatening Taiwan's existence, right? The point is that there are ways to fixing this problem without visiting there. It's not like Pelosi prevented a Xi plan to send troops in August. Frankly, do we know what the visit actually achieved that wasn't possible without a visit? Edit: btw. I'm an Asian who's on the receiving end of the US military support, having all reasons to be extra-careful.


DistributedDemocracy

It further exposes China globally as a nation you don't want to do businesses with. It's a good move that will speed up multiple nations efforts to move away from China as helping make a very public and undeniable display to the world. The bigger the hissy fit they throw the more reasons we have to cut reliance. Unlike other China government evil, China can't hide this from the world and China gets away with a lot because they hide as much as possible. **The point was to piss off China,** not to talk to Taiwan, so other they pretending she visited Taiwan I don't see how you'd get the same effect. It's likely we have Intel showing China and Russia conspiring to work for common goals USING the Ukraine war. China is just getting some of what they deserve and if they want to start a war over it they will be starting a war right in their own main trade routes. China is also weaker than ever right now and it's a better time to help them understand they don't really have a option to take Taiwan and have their country as they know it survive.


skolioban

This. This is the US stunting on China since China kept siding with Putin.


TROLLBLASTERTRASHER

Weaker than ever? Dont they fired a hypersonic missile a few months ago?


Miserable-Lizard

Why is no one stoping Saudia Arabia?


TROLLBLASTERTRASHER

Because he sells oil barrels in dollars.


spderweb

That and they'd go for an actual attack of Taiwan. US made a promise to Taiwan to protect them, and they should 100% keep it.


moo6o6

Pelvis could have never said she would go, therefore no loss of face.


megapuffranger

Why does no one get this? China gave us a command, if we follow it for whatever reason it gives China power. No matter what excuses you can come up with at the end of the day it’s China demanding things of other countries it has no business demanding.


Skarzog

Yea once she announced she was going there was no backing down without appeasing CCP. Issue was making the plans in the first place. Lets get it straight the speaker of the house, second in line for US President disregarded long standing US foreign policy, disregarded the advice of the US President and White House and Pentagon. She unilaterally made the biggest foreign policy shift and dragged the entire country along with her... on her own. How is this not completely insane? She literally Leroyed Jenkins the US into a potential conflict with the CCP on her own terms. At best she escalated tensions in that region, Taiwan is currently encircled by the PLR and the closest to potential direct conflict since the 90s. Even if no one had the intention to begin a conflict, wars are started accidentally through collateral damage all the time. What was gained by her move, tangibly nothing. Completely symbolic. Any realist take on this foreign policy strategy would have marked it as a poor strategy, high risk very little upside if any. After she pulled that shit President of South Korea didn't even want to see her...


DungeonDefense

Pelosi never announced she was going to Taiwan


DoofusMcDummy

people knew about it before she even traveled. it wasn't a secret.


DungeonDefense

Which people knew? People thought that she might go to Taiwan, but she never confirmed it.


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DungeonDefense

I don’t remember that, do you have a link?


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DungeonDefense

> Reports by some Japanese and Taiwanese media that Pelosi planned to visit Taiwan after a stop in Japan this weekend —though **not** **confirmed** by Pelosi office or Taiwan’s government Like I said, not confirmed by Pelosi. There were talks that she might go but it was never confirmed


Loop_Within_A_Loop

people on Twitter were memeing about her plane getting shot down for like a week before she even left. It was very well known.


DungeonDefense

Right, that’s what they were saying if she went to Taiwan. Key word on if.


DoofusMcDummy

here. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/01/politics/nancy-pelosi-taiwan-visit/index.html


DungeonDefense

>Secretary of State Antony Blinken reiterated the administration's line that it is Pelosi's decision whether she visits, adding, "**we do not know what Speaker Pelosi intends to do**." Sounds like Pelosi might visit Taiwan, but it was never confirmed by her.


IceNein

This is probably the most factually inaccurate assessment of the situation possible. Congratulations.


Skarzog

Please tell me the facts, apparently everything I said was false.


Crash0vrRide

We dont believe skarzog has any practical k knowledge in this area. You are literally just making an opinion up that could or couldnt be co.completely wrong. Do you work for our government? What makes your statements so correct and true?


IceNein

He said that she planned her trip against the advice of the President. Such a ridiculous statement. Pelosi is about as a “by the books” team player as there ever was in the House. I can promise that there was thorough involvement with the State Department.


Vlaladim

Actually while Pelosi was on still preparing for her trip, China new agencies used this to escalate tensions by saying she would travel to Taiwan and there would be consequences for such a visit but this was before she began her trip, she was at Guam when this kinds of news were recommended at me. So yeah the Chinese basically escalate the situation to the point that she can’t just low tow to them and need to make a decision on the fly. Source: Vietnamese, my country learn this kind of tactics by China years ago, not effective just rather semi throwing tantrum during the Nine Dash Line in the East Sea here in SEA.


IceNein

Do yourself a favor and just briefly familiarize yourself with the topic on the Wikipedia page, and then feel free to get back to me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan–United_States_relations


Billybob9389

>She literally Leroyed Jenkins the US into a potential conflict with the CCP on her own terms. It's worth it for exactly this reason. China needs the know that the US is done with its shit. I for one am more than glad that she did it.


stillestwaters

I mean, I’m glad she didn’t back down after she announced it - but it seems like she just stirred the pot because she felt like it. Biden had already been signaling that the US would continue supporting Taiwan and even that we’d defend them militarily. I guess if we start seeing more high leveled diplomats go to Taiwan to snub China then it served something. We’re dealing with Russia invading a sovereign nation and Europe being thrown into an energy crises, all while we’ve been trying to pivot to Asia for the last two democratic presidents. It just feels unnecessary


mariobrowniano

There was , and it came from Biden. "The military advised the president that I shouldn't visit" Simple. But she didn't take the advice and went anyway.


boundegar

Sick burn on you, Pelosi. Now you have to fight him.


ylteicz123

Just recognize Taiwan as the true government of China again. Fuck Maoists and their sympathizers.


dubiousadvocate

Ex-diplomat doesn't seem to understand when diplomacy deliberately involves sending a message regardless of how provocative. The best thing that could happen now is every country in the world send a top government official to Taiwan every other week. It's a win win for all folks who believe in freedom and self determination. China could burn 100s of millions every week as the rest of the world parades through. It will be very hard on certain parts of Taiwan's economy, especially fishermen. I think the rest of the world could compensate by paying 100 million US to the country with a thirty million carveout just for the fishermen. With each visit. Peanuts. China can watch as the rest of the world weans themselves off the Chinese teat. As with Russia it is a peanuts investment to avoid a future when China is finally strong enough to be a real threat. Better to weaken them now. Win win for all the good guys. EDIT: Chinese and Russian trolls, please pile on with more downvotes. That's how we know we hit a nerve. Keep it up. I glory in it.


badabababaim

I’m not a Chinese or Russian troll but paying that much money is a very nieve view when there is literally nothing wrong with the status quo while the world moved away from Chinese production


dubiousadvocate

When Western countries weigh a more powerful and belligerent China in twenty years, and they do, 100 million per diplomat visit is peanuts. Because eventually the threat settles in on the Average Chinese citizen and that leads to the one thing China has hated more for the last three thousand year: internal resurrection. My number is made up of course. But the impact is very real if much of the rest of the world decides to call China's bluff. And it is a bluff. Xi/she is not Putin. Assuming She survives the next election. The knives in China are out for him and he knows it.


pink_sock

what the fuck does this even mean


Proregressive

American exceptionalism and the need to destroy anyone who threatens that.


dubiousadvocate

I'm sorry you didn't grasp it. But that is not my problem.


Nurnurum

China has used its *wolf warrior diplomacy* (that means threatening with consequences and being constantly offended) in the last years to project strength domestically. This is intended to promote nationalism and also aims to distract the average chinese citizen from the **actual** problems China faces (i.e. climate change, overaging, collapsing housing market and food security). But for that to function, they need foreign countries/businesses to play along to a certain degree. And it did went well with businesses, who were bending over backwarts to fullfill chinese demands in the last years. Of course they would wish that foreign countries would also be as accommodating as those companies, but their reaction to this was more lackluster in the past. u/dubiousadvocate is no proposing that western countries should *actively* engaging against Chinas demands as this would show to the average chinese, that their leadership is more like a pup, then a wolf. He hopes that this would lead to an uprising, or at least to a change in CCP leadership.


BallardRex

This ex-diplomat is probably just upset that the US finally remembered appeasement doesn’t work, and feels guilty for his his role in decades of appeasement.


008Zulu

Or trying to justify it, so they don't feel their time was wasted.


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BallardRex

I believe the word you’re looking for is, “WHATABOUT?!”


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ZephkielAU

The US has revolving leaders and genuine political opposition. These are important factors.


BallardRex

Appeasement doesn’t work is shorthand for “Appeasement doesn’t work as a way to placate dictators/tyrants.” It’s generally a reference to Europe in the run up to WWII, and their attempts to avoid it by placating Hitler. Since I generally don’t write exhaustive page+ posts, I try to work on the assumption that the people likely to reply are functional and acting in good faith. Unlike you.


dubiousadvocate

> the US finally remembered appeasement Finally? Have you been checked out of reality since WW2?


BallardRex

I’m not the one who spent the last several decades feeding China trillions, while bending over backwards for them… and sometimes forwards just for fun.


Loop_Within_A_Loop

they absolutely did not do it for fun. Offshoring of manufacturing was an entirely rational decision driven by declining rates of profit by multinational corporations acting in accordance with the incentives levelled upon them. It was never going any other way under the rules of the game


BallardRex

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t, but either way it won’t just be the US paying the price for that bit of misjudgment, just like our (EU) dependence on Russian gas isn’t just biting us. Decisions, even seemingly rational ones, can still have devastating consequences beyond the architects of those decisions. If nothing else, that should be a lesson we all take away from this year.


DynamicSocks

Have you?


doge2dmoon

>Chinese and Russian trolls, please pile on with more downvotes. You're in the wrong forum if you're expecting to be downvoted. If you say death to Putin and China, it's automatic 100 upvotes😅😅 Discussion and nuance get downvoted here. China could cut off Taiwan from the sea as they are currently demonstrating. They could actually block plans from landing in Taiwan too so the world leaders would have to fly home. China like Russia has nuclear weapons. Diplomacy in such circumstances seems boring but wise. The world is different to 'top gun'.


dubiousadvocate

>China could cut off Taiwan from the sea as they are currently demonstrating. They could actually block plans from landing in Taiwan too so the world leaders would have to fly home. There are zero examples of this approach working since WW2. Zero. We are already forcing this weak limp wristed approach at a blockade. Should China make it a real blockade we will push that blockade with real force. China needs to understand its pitiful attempt at domestic propaganda will eventually lead to real world consequences. **Push the West enough and China will see real blockades on raw materials and fossil fuel imports that China critically needs to be the world's sweatshop. Will it hurt the West? Absolutely.** But China is the country whose internal security is so brittle it wants to start a PR war over a simple one day visit by one senator from the US. Ask Russia. We can put two CSGs there and provide a nightmare umbrella over all Chinese shipping. And we know for a fact China is not launching nukes. The US alone can eliminate the Chinese Navy in roughly a month. The US alone can neutralize most long range, and probably medium range, missiles launches. China is hoping they can see our cards when they encourage Russian attempts at nuclear supremacy. They won't see it with Russia. But they will if they keep on their current path.


TheRed_Knight

China doesnt even have a real aircraft carrier atm lmao, how tf they gonna project naval power? gunboats?


dubiousadvocate

Apparently they have mythological swarm drone subs that are nuclear powered, completely undetectable, that can survive 5,000 miles unattended and blow up the US. I swear to gawd only a John Belushi movie is more credible. Only the Russian populace is more gullible. I absolutely guarantee the West knows where every Russian and Chinese sub is at any given given moment. Autonomous miniature nuclear powered swarming atomic missile subs... not even Marvel comics thought that was a credible idea for a comic book.


TheRed_Knight

lotta people love stroking off Chinese wunderwaffen, usually those who know very little about history, the military, or geopolitics


TheRed_Knight

>China could cut off Taiwan from the sea as they are currently demonstrating. They could actually block plans from landing in Taiwan too so the world leaders would have to fly home. lmao no, you are vastly overestimating the PLAAF and the PLAN, that would be an absurd escalation and blockade=literal declaration of war, theres no way the West or its Eastern allies would sit back and just watch.


Sapiendoggo

Unlike Russia they only have a hundred or so nukes, don't have nuclear ballistic missile submarines, their rockets are untested and few, and their air power can't cross the pacific. They are very much a paper tiger in the way of nuclear weapons.


Erisagi

We could start by formally recognizing Taiwan first. The United States should go back to the policy before 1979 when we abrogated our formal defensive alliance and downgraded our relations with Taipei.


tausgr

Reminds me of this chestnut from May: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-ukraine-russia-territory-davos/ It feels like the old diplomatic corps has a hard time seeing the forest from the trees these days.


CompetitiveTraining9

> Win win for all the good guys. You actually think that the real world is like a movie where it's the good guys versus the bad guys? Let me tell you something, no one thinks they're the bad guys in this world. Everyone has their own story and their own narrative to justify their own moral high ground. The Chinese, the Russians, and the Americans included. The media and government are able to influence the population and instill a certain view of the world on the population. Just because you think you have press freedom and free speech, it doesn't make you immune from that. Media is owned and backed by corporate interests which are linked to government interests due to the relation between government and corporation in highly capitalist nations. And btw, you can always manipulate and twist facts in a way to suit your own narrative. That is literally what all media with an agenda does.


dubiousadvocate

Cool story. No relevance to the real world. Feels like you're projecting your own country. But please, elaborate more.


CompetitiveTraining9

Yes and your worldview is based on the notion of good guys versus bad guys. A fictional concept they use in movies to make them more watchable... But yeah sure, I'm "projecting my [own] country", whatever that means...


dubiousadvocate

All countries protect their interests. China is making sure the rest of the world align their interests to protect themselves from Russia and China. This is tiresome when the best trolls like yourself can do is pretend this is a marvel movie. When I say good vs bad guys I'm literally pointing out actors who undermine global economic and national security while undermining their own people. Russia and China are not Bad Guys to me. I'm 60 not 10. They are bad guys to their own citizens that they still see as cannon fodder. Maybe at some point their own citizens will decide enough is enough. But I doubt it.


bedrooms-ds

You ignored the worst potential outcome, which is that this escalates so much to put Taiwan in a more uncertain state. It's not in Pelosi's authority to establish an international agreement against China. If China invades tomorrow, it's Biden's task to respond internationally, and she indeed did not let Biden get ready for that.


dubiousadvocate

>It's not in Pelosi's authority to establish an international agreement against China. Correct. Pelosi does not have the authority to "establish an international agreement with China". Nor did she. Pelosi simply visited for a day with an independent country and that visit had nothing to do with China. Which the entire world understands except China. Which does understand but they thought stoking up internal dissent to distract from the absolute fuck up that is China was a cool idea. China royally fucked up. They can pay for all the street protests they want but even their own people understand it is bullshit but they ain't gonna say that because false imprisonment is a bitch. ​ >If China invades tomorrow, it's Biden's task to respond internationally, and she indeed did not let Biden get ready for that. Yes. No. He is. Biden has already said he will put the full force of the US, not NATO but the US, behind Taiwan if China blockades, or attacks, or tries to invade. Think on that for a second. Not Pelosi. Biden. China understands Biden means what he says. Pelosi did nothing but tell China to put up or shut up. Pelosi and Biden are on the same page. You do not understand how democracies work. Nor does China. China is about to be the puppy that poops on the rug and has his face rubbed in it. There is zero space between Biden and Pelosi. Zero. Space. To be blunt. Taiwan has the full backing of the USA if China seriously does anything more than blow up fish in the ocean. How nice that China has learned how to blow up the ocean. The USA has experience in blowing up countries.


polytopey

If CCP can't buy world's governments, it has certainly & obviously made the world's CEOs kneel on their knees. These CEOs will in turn lobby their governments. We're all losing, because as dictatorship, they're united and play the long game, but democratic countries only worry about the coming elections.


dubiousadvocate

That's not happening though. Western CEOs have seen what happens to their competitors who have clung to China despite all this. Same for Russia. They are bailing out and taking huge losses. Western accounting practices allow them to do so and so those companies perform better. The companies dragging their feet are getting badly hurt on their equities market. It is a snowball effect. I think what a lot of eastern companies do not yet realize is under western laws companies can cut and run but are still rewarded by the market for doing so. Companies in Russia and China have nowhere to flee to. Russia and China have locked their economies to a death spiral where they can't raise funds, can't compete in current markets, and are locked out of future financial deals to just stay afloat. Let alone expand. **China hasn't yet faced the shotgun blast to the face Russia has. But they are very close.** **China has such a fear of domestic uprising they create the conditions for those uprisings. And escalation with the West this month makes that a certainty.**


bionioncle

> Ex-diplomat doesn't seem to understand when diplomacy deliberately involves sending a message regardless of how provocative. Surely you understand diplomacy and your world is credible? Surely The rest of the world can compensate the rest of the world the money lost from doing business with China. But first how about the rest of the world compensate the rest of the world the food and rising energy price lost from Russia?


dubiousadvocate

That... was a muddled and incomprehensible response. I think English is not your first language? Could you restate in a way that is more understandable?


bionioncle

Surely you understand diplomacy and your world is credible?


dubiousadvocate

Why should the rest of the world care about funding two countries committed to undermining the world economic order that benefits everyone so just those two countries loot their own citizens as they attempt to claim more territory. Russia and China both had the same goals: lock in the entire world to build up enough military to project force. The world seems to have decided maybe it is time to deny both countries the ability to do that. Russia is already toast by their own actions. They are done now. China seems unwilling to learn from the mistakes of others. Ok. They are next to implode themselves. Keep it up. You will not like the result. It's not the 13th century where every world has their own world map of who is important. If I were the average Chinese citizen I'd begin to realize my country is committing suicide over a 14th century mind dream.


Sapiendoggo

Exactly, it would send a message that China faces the rest of the developed world if they threaten tiawan and that we aren't falling for their bluff. Which would then force them to lose face and the confidence of their people, or war that they can't win or fight without collapsing


dubiousadvocate

I admit I'll never understand the idea of "face" in some cultures. In my mind "face" is the sixteen year old kid who is so insecure he had to start a fight over a girl that never wanted him in the first place. I'm sure it is more culturally complex. But the outcome is no different. Either way the woman still hates him, the guys around her go looking for a reason for punching the punk in the face later, and the punk has to call for daddy's lawyers to protect him. I think the closest example I ever encountered was the Arabic parable of "they have stolen my turkey".


Sapiendoggo

Thats pretty much it, it's honor ramped up to 11, mixed with cultural principles and pettiness. So you're always putting up a falaw image of who you are and any attack or challenge on that can ruin your social standing and your families social standing. Say for instance I scuff your new Jordan's, so now you must demand compensation but I refuse. If you don't do anything you'll be seen as weak and failing to uphold your honor and reputation.and by doing so your families honor and reputation by extension. So you are honor bound to fight me for compensation or in the urban western arena just shoot me over scuffed Jordan's. Consequences be damned you proved you ain't somebody to fuck with and that's all that matters.


-wnr-

It's worth noting Taiwan lobbied for the visit. Pelosi was welcomed with a big message on Taipei 101. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4614864 There's a constant battle between China trying to diplomatically isolate Taiwan, and Taiwan trying to engage with foreign leaders. Backing off here at China's say-so hardens their position that they can dictate the reality of the region and betrays a regional ally.


euryproktos

That's not lobbying for a visit; that's just welcoming her. What do you expect them to do? Put up a sign that says "Go home, Pelosi?" Taiwan's security is in large part ensured by the United States. They cannot say no to a visit even if they wanted to.


toofine

Private communications happen and these trips are planned months, if not years ahead. Pelosi has already visited Taiwan before and has been an ally for theirs for decades. She is also a prominent leader of the CHIPs Act which increases US-Taiwanese partnerships. So yeah, they want her there.


Korith_Eaglecry

You think she just woke up that morning and decided to land in Taiwan? This was planned.


doge2dmoon

Interesting. Do you have a source for the lobbying?


-wnr-

I watched a video with an interview of one of the lobbists but can't find it now. Here's another source though https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/08/04/how-the-taiwan-lobby-helped-pave-the-way-for-pelosis-trip/ edit: actually that article doesn't doesn't address this trip explicitly, I'll try to find another source


doge2dmoon

Thanks for looking, I couldn't figure out if she just decided to call in without an invite. [https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/china/pelosi-visit-what-taiwan-thinks-intl-hnk/index.html](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-premier-warmly-welcomes-foreign-guests-when-asked-about-pelosi-visit-2022-08-02/) >There has been no statement in favor of, or against, Pelosi's potential trip from Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen or her office -- though Premier Su Tseng-chang said on Wednesday that Taipei was "very grateful to Speaker Pelosi for her strong support and kindness towards Taiwan over the years" and that the island welcomes any friendly guests from overseas. Seemed a bit on the fence to me


-wnr-

So the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office put work into the visit, but unfortunately their site is down right now (hmmm), but here's a interview with their US representative at least alluding to that they "pushed for this visit" https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/taiwans-top-diplomat-in-the-u-s-discusses-escalating-threats-from-china


doge2dmoon

Fair play. My parents had a good relationships with some Taiwanese and it always seemed sad and unfair the way they were isolated. If this is what they want, hopefully it is moving things in the right direction for Taiwan.


-wnr-

Another poster u/dirtycuttings shared an article that states the nature of the lobbying more explicitly https://www.yahoo.com/video/taiwan-admits-paying-american-lobbyists-093000315.html


Geoarbitrage

I’m glad she went and didn’t cow tow to xiping


Miserable-Lizard

War sucks and hurts regular people the most.. I just want a world with no war.


DrumpfTinyHands

But one of the top five most powerful people in the United States visiting Taiwan helps legitimize it as a sovereign country, separate from China or any other of the countries of Asia. Even if the US does nothing else for Taiwan, this implies that the world at large sees them as a nation. Don't know what its gonna do for them though.


DistributedDemocracy

At the very least there is no way China can look like a responsible modern nation while also acting like North Korea. It exposes China as acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum.


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doge2dmoon

Most children don't have the ability to blow up the world....


CrispFreshley

Us officials could have done things smarter you say🤔


Travbobmetalpants

How is no one talking about Paul Pelosi investing in US microchip companies right before the Chips Act, right before Nancy visits the #1 microchip manufacturing country that’s is going to end up dealing with Chinese sanctions?


Koolaidolio

Half of Reddit is talking about Paul and his Nvidia trades. Funny that he sold at a loss.


dr_pingas_3000

Because the CHIPS for America act would ideally move manufacturing to the states, potentially reducing dependence on Taiwanese semiconductors.


dissidentpen

Fuck China. Pelosi did the right thing 100%. We will not concede to fascist threats, at home or abroad. What is it with all these authoritarians right now? They really think they’re having themselves a moment don’t they?


ylteicz123

No, Pelosi's decision to visit Taiwan was absolutely correct, and a good way to show that the democracies in Asia still have support when it comes to standing up to China. If China wants to act tough, and waste billions of dollars on shooting fish with missiles, then so be it. Their withdrawal from agreements they didn't respect anways doesn't matter obviously. It was direly needed visit after Trump made America into a joke on the world stage for 4 years.


Proregressive

>and a good way to show that the democracies in Asia still have support when it comes to standing up to China. The article is about how democracies in Asia (Singapore and Australia) are worried. The South Korean president didn't even meet Pelosi because of the implication of conflict. This visit had the opposite effect.


Weltall8000

Why should we care about standing up to China, when it comes to a matter of their own national sovereignty in a physical location that our official policy recognizes as theirs?


BadAtLearningKorean

Because that official policy is bullshit simply so we can buy Chinese products. Taiwan is a separate country. The only legitimate Chinese government.


Weltall8000

Why is it bullshit? Neither China, nor the US recognize it as a separate country, let alone the legitimate government of China.


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Weltall8000

I am not implying that, it is.


thereisasuperee

Imagine simping for the CCP


Weltall8000

Really not. It just seems like needlessly meddling in another country's affairs and starting conflict in direct contradiction of their own nation's policy.


ylteicz123

Nope, CCP has never ruled Taiwan, and it never should.


GrimbledonWimbleflop

You are objectively wrong. Stop trying to debate, troll.


Weltall8000

The two most powerful super powers on the planet don't recognize it as a sovereign nation. One of them claims it. The international community overwhelmingly doesn't recognize it either. Being generous, it is contested. "Objectively wrong" though? Lmao, no. Not really.


LustrousShadow

Do you also defend Russia invading Ukraine, or the next dozen countries to follow?


Weltall8000

Unlike Taiwan, Ukraine is a sovereign nation that we happen to officially recognize. I am confused (well, not really -it's about the semiconductors), as to why the US sounds as though it is ready to jump in directly with its military to defend Taiwan, but drags its heels as a country we have official relations with, is being brutally invaded, in Ukraine.


LustrousShadow

>why the US sounds as though it is ready to jump in directly with its military to defend Taiwan Wow, I didn't realize Pelosi's visit counts as the military jumping in the middle of things. She must be a lot stronger than she looks\~


Weltall8000

To be fair, Pelosi did fly in on an official US military vehicle. But, you misunderstood what I wrote. I was talking about how the buzz from the US (iirc Biden himself said) is that the US would offer direct military aid to Taiwan if necessary. This was after the 2022 round of invasions of Ukraine. The US has not directly entered that conflict, despite thousands of civilian deaths and blatant war crimes at the hands of Russia.


DesignerAccount

This denotes deep ignorance about the China-Taiwan issue. Of course China is not the ruler of Taiwan, but it's on them to resolve. The "Taiwan faction" lost in their own internal civil war and had been hiding since. The CCP will, at some point, lose another internal struggle, and someone else will take power. Flip it on the US - If Hawaii of Alaska declared to be independent countries because of disagreements with Washington, should we all just let them go? Maybe the answer **should** be yes, but I know where my bets would be placed.


ylteicz123

Because Taiwan is a functional and prosperous democracy, and they produce computer chips. China also violated the one China, two systems agrement when they occupied Hong Kong. Allowing Taiwan to fall, would also set the precedence that democracies are up for grabs by power hungry dictators, and so Japan could be next, supplies chains collapse and your quality of life goes down the shitter. No more Iphone for you.


bedrooms-ds

So, you mean the US will guarantee an absolute protection to a functional and prosperous democracy like they did with Hong Kong?


ylteicz123

According to Biden, yes. > an absolute protection to a functional and prosperous democracy like they did with Hong Kong? There was no capabilities to protect Hong Kong, it was also a completely unprovoked and quick annexation. It won't be the same with Taiwan.


bedrooms-ds

You mean the statement by Biden that was walked back immediately by the WH? Can the US Congress 100% approve military response before it's too late? It's hard to forget about uncertainty if one's on the receiving end of the military support, on which I am as a Japanese.


rdxxx

Maybe world should invade USA because that country doesn't look democratic or free to me, i mean this power hungry country keep waging wars to plunder resources in middle east, they actually used nuclear weapons on civilian population; Korea, Vietnam, south America, Cuba embargo, Guantanamo, 'war on drugs' CIA proping contras smuggling cocaine, they aren't even that good to their own citizens - largest percentage of incarcerated population, doest sound too 'free'


ylteicz123

What does defending a democracy have to do with invading another country? Nobody is asking for mainland China to be invaded. Else, USA is backwards in a lot of ways, and is extremly flawed in many ways. But its still democratic, and enforces a global order that is able to maintain a strong relative peace compared to other periods in history. The model also has lifted more people out of poverty than ever before in human history, so its not all that bad.


rdxxx

Is it democratic? Popular vote losers become presidents. What's that? Abortion ban? Oh strange i thought nearly 70% of Americans support right to abortion where's that democracy really? Enforces global order? Jesus fucking Christ talk about being brainwashed, what fucking order? how many years in the past century where USA wasn't waging some war or proping right-wing extremists in sovering south american countries?


DesignerAccount

>But its still democratic, and enforces a global order that is able to maintain a strong relative peace compared to other periods in history. > >The model also has lifted more people out of poverty than ever before in human history, so its not all that bad. Sorry my friend, but this is some serious brainwashing you've been subjected to, and you're not even aware. America only cares about one thing in global affairs, America. Period. And to ensure America has it it's own way people have been killed mercilessly. To the extent that there was peace in a certain area of the world it was always coincidentally to America's goals. In fact, with 223 years of 243 existence spent at war, my statement is pretty much self evident.


ylteicz123

> and you're not even aware. America only cares about one thing in global affairs, America. Its not a zero sum game. For instance, South Korea is far better off than their miserable communist brother. Same for Taiwan compared to mainland china. >And to ensure America has it it's own way people have been killed mercilessly. A lot of the wars weren't justified, which is true. >In fact, with 223 years of 243 existence spent at war, my statement is pretty much self evident. https://oneearthfuture.org/news/2021-04-07-world-getting-more-peaceful Completely misleading statement. Perhaps you've been brainwashed by Beijing/St.Petersburg ?


DesignerAccount

>Its not a zero sum game. For instance, South Korea is far better off than their miserable communist brother. Same for Taiwan compared to mainland china. It need not be, but America (following the steps of the British) ensures that's the outcome. BTW, SK v NK or CN v TW are completely unrelated to the point, not sure why you're even making these examples. > >>In fact, with 223 years of 243 existence spent at war, my statement is pretty much self evident. > >https://oneearthfuture.org/news/2021-04-07-world-getting-more-peaceful Completely misleading statement. Perhaps you've been brainwashed by Beijing/St.Petersburg ? Once again, what's the quoted article have to do with anything? That there's fewer battlefield deaths doesn't mean very much. If that meant much then the Ukraine war should be completely ignored because in the bigger picture not many people have died. Is this what you want to argue? How about destruction of a country? Which, BTW, is the real tragedy in Ukraine? Or people living with PTSD due to the possibility of being bombed, even if not dying? Go talk to the Iraqis what state their country was left in. The deaths are a total tragedy, but let's not forget about the living who need to rebuild everything and perhaps keep dying because the infrastructure is destroyed. Are you sure I'm being brainwashed by St Petersburg (presume you mean Moscow?) and/or Beijing? Your Washington brainwash is quite clearly on display.


Weltall8000

Why should we care about democracy existing elsewhere? Computer chips is probably closer to the real reason, but, that sounds a lot like oil, and we've overthrown prosperous governments over commodities before, but that seems morally dubious. Then wouldn't Hong Kong be the place to go and have a response to that? As far as the US is concerned, Taiwan is China. We don't even recognize it as a country. Japan on the other hand is a sovereign nation. Seems like this cascade happens, because the US wound up officially doing something provocative.


ylteicz123

>Why should we care about democracy existing elsewhere? Because it makes your country stronger, increases your security and increases progress and quality of life. Taiwan does a lot for the world in terms of innovation (unlike mainland China who assembles shit). Isolationism is a policy for fools, which inevitably leads to regression. > Then wouldn't Hong Kong be the place to go and have a response to that? That would be declaring war on CCP/Mainland China. CCP has never ruled Taiwan, not for a second. It was an government in exile, who preserved Chinese culture, while the maoists were busy burning books. >As far as the US is concerned, Taiwan is China. Yes, and no. China agreed to a one country, two systems arrangement. But that doesn't suffice, then Taiwan should be recognized as the true government of China.


Weltall8000

Care to demonstrate how that is uniquely exclusive to democratic forms of government? China isn't innovative? How do you figure?


ylteicz123

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323007240_Does_democracy_cause_innovation


Weltall8000

So, "no."


ylteicz123

Yeah, you are right. I was a bit quick there. Democracies does however cause growth. https://www.bu.edu/econ/files/2019/05/Democracy-and-growth-JPE-Revised-November-15-2016.pdf


Korith_Eaglecry

This isn't about democracy. Never has been. The US is the sole Super Power and its going to do what it must to defend that position.


Weltall8000

Bingo.


GwentDjent

Anybody thats following politics and not condemning Pelosi on her visit to Taiwan is actively warmongering and consenting to decades of horrific, preventable war and hardship for countless human beings.


RandomJPG

We need to start a war to bring freedoms!!!!1!! Honestly how the fuck does the American public continue to fall for this war mongering propaganda. Since Vietnam, it’s been the same rhetoric.


DesignerAccount

Be careful, you'll be accused of simping for China, or if being a troll. Nevermind that pretty much everyone around her told her not to go, and she's very well aware of the prospects of the November elections, i.e. she'll lose her job most likely. (Unless democrats and repubblicans alike become very pissed with Roe v Wade consequences...) In other words, she did it exclusively for her own ego aggrandizement, the sad warmongering shit that she is.


Chemical_Coach1437

How foolish. China is on the verge of financial collapse and we're supposed to back down from a peaceful diplomatic visit due to what equates as a temper tantrum?


PsYDaniel3

It seems like it’s the most effective way to piss of China and to show just how scared of the USA they are.


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redditaskerandpoller

If Nancy Pelosi wants to visit Taiwan, she has every fucking right to visit Taiwan. If you have a problem with that, there's something wrong with YOU, not her.


-wnr-

And Taiwan invited her, they asked her to go. Even if someone disagrees with the visit, the fault is clearly with the side lobbing missiles in response. It's an insane reaction.


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-wnr-

Thanks for this lol, this article's more explicit about the lobbying than the others i found


euryproktos

How about what Taiwan wants? Pelosi is putting them in a really though position. They can't say no to the visit because they can't risk upsetting someone who has influence over their security assurances against China. But if they do welcome her, as they have done, they're sending a clear message to China that they are a national security threat. From the Chinese perspective: If Taiwan can't say no to a visit that obviously endangers their sovereignty, what can they say no to? This is not the way to protect Taiwanese sovereignty.


GrimbledonWimbleflop

Taiwan *really* wanted Pelosi to go. They've been lobbying hardcore for something like this for years.


euryproktos

To go now? To go in this way? This aggressively? I don't think so. Of course they're leading her on; they have to: she's got the power of the purse. But the state department, who have a better line with the Taiwanese government were sheepish at best about the visit. Look at this from the Taiwanese perspective. Would you want the Speaker of the House of the United States, enemy no. 1 of the bully next door, to aggressively go after said bully at a time when China's already being hammered? Does Taiwan really want to look like it's intimately involved with American anti-China legislation being passed right now? I don't think so. Taiwan have done the smart thing: by embracing the visit at least they're trying to indicate to Beijing that they aren't dancing a jig for one US politician. But given the mixed signals from the executive branch, I doubt China will buy this. If this visit has shown anything to Beijing, it's shown that Taiwan is a grave national security threat to China.


redditaskerandpoller

If the Taiwanese government was truly unwilling to host her visit, it would've been accepted and understood by the U.S., and I'm pretty sure there's no way Pelosi herself would've or could've forced her way into Taiwan. And whatever "message(s)" China has received from her visit has/have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with reality. It's all bullshit, absolute bullshit, and we all need to stop accepting China's bullshit and taking it seriously!


DistributedDemocracy

We don't need intelligent ways, we need obvious and provocative idea to see what China is really made of. The more violently they react the faster the world needs to distance themselves from China. The point is to piss of China and see how they react. It's a test of their capacity to not act like authoritarian children.. and they failed.


RandomJPG

Why are you advocating for violence?? Go spend some time reflecting on your sense of humanity instead of masturbating your hard on for the military industrial complex.


DirtyPartyMan

It’s as if these Boomers want the world to end


bgat79

An easy way to find out if this is ridiculous is reverse the scenario.


Death_Trolley

I have no problem with Pelosi going there, but this is right. Flying around the world so you can get your picture taken in Taipei is not the most we can do. Taiwan has been in a state of limbo for decades, and it’s under the gun from China more each year. It needs meaningful support.


dubiousadvocate

Which is what Pelosi set out to do. She doesn't need a "PR stunt" to get re-elected. Her seat is locked as long as she wants it. Her position is principled and in Taiwan's interests and countered to Chinas. It's fun watching the trolls from dictatorships completely misunderstand how democracies work. But of course. They've never had democracy, free will, self determination.


veltcardio2

Yeah but none of those would had Xi throwing a tantrum… fuck dictatorships.


UserRazzmatazz

Nah, west Taiwan is just playing chicken shit


FIicker7

Is their though? I mean ultimately I believe the visit was successful at showing China's true colors. Ultimately international business will move away from China to reduce the risk of what happened to Business assets in Russia. Why prolong the inevitable? It's important to play the right cards at the right time. And Pelosi's visit was at the right time.


SuspectNo7354

First they say that we can't let china dictate where American leaders may or may not go. Now they are saying that all she did was cause trouble for a photo opp. I'm starting to think that pelosi was going to be criticized no matter what decision she was going to make. I'm not really starting to think that though, because that's exactly what was going to happen. This article is written by a diplomat with a political agenda, not a foreign policy one.


pattyswag21

I politely disagree with this ex diplomat


Cronosovieticus

And he's right, not in the short and long term the big loser of this was Taiwan, potentially with an economic blockade and from now on the Chinese will hold their military exercises on their shores, but Pelosi took her picture so ok?


AegorBlake

No the best way to to tell the oppressor country to fuck off.